Mark Hunter joins Collin Mitchell in this episode of the Sales Hustle podcast. Let’s hear from Mark as he gives the gist on how he started his career in sales and how it has shaped him into being one of the most well-recognized influencers and consultants in the industry on an international level.
Mark Hunter, CSP, most well known as “The Sales Hunter” is one of the Top 50 Most Influential Sales and Marketing Leaders in the world. Apart from being a key sales speaker and a consultant, he is also a Bestselling author whose published numerous books, such as “A Mind for Sales,” “High-Profit Prospecting,” and “High-Profit Selling.”
His expertise is focused on helping influence and impact others to help them see and achieve what they didn’t think was possible. Based on the 30+ years of sales leadership experience, he thrives through his high-energy and blunt approach. With the way he challenges people and their sales beliefs, he implements that his teachings are not for the timid and where changes are required, measures need to be taken ASAP. His successful approach is what’s gotten him to travel around the world 230 days per year and being quoted by established media channels like Forbes, Inc, Entrepreneur and Bloomberg’s Business Week. And as a result, his clientele’s range for engagements are from small start-ups to “Fortune 100” companies.
Mark’s career in sales started to take a pivotal turn when he got fired from his first two positions as he became the top performing salesperson after assuming his third job. To this day, CEO and sales teams rely on him for his cutting-edge growth strategies and outcome based approach with his techniques used by salespeople in 5 continents and in more than 100 countries.
Find out more and reach out to Mark Hunter through the following links:
Check out https://thesaleshunter.com/50-prospecting-truths-ebook/ to get Mark’s free eBook “50 Prospecting Truths” that contains infographics on how to set yourself apart as a great salesperson from your average colleagues.
Join the Sales Hustle Community! Text “Hustle” to 424-401-9300!
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Episode 76 - Mark Hunter
Welcome to the sales hustle. The only no BS podcast, where we bring you the real raw uncut experiences from sales change makers across various industries. The only place where you can get what you're looking for too. Uh, your sales game today's episode is brought to you by sales cast sales cast helps sales professionals transformed the relationship building process and win their dream clients.
[00:00:30] I'm your host, Colin Mitchell. All right. What is happening? Sales hustlers. Welcome to another episode. I've got a fantastic guest for you today. We're going to be talking with Mark Hunter, the sales Hunter, who is recognized as one of the top 50 most influential sales and marketing leaders in the world.
[00:00:50] He's the author of a mind for sales. His other books include high profit. Prospecting and high profit selling the focus of the work is helping influence and impact others to help them see and achieve what they didn't think was possible. Mark, thanks for coming on sales house today. How are you doing? Hey, I'm doing great.
[00:01:10] Cause that's where we're going to do. We're going to help people hustle more in sales. Absolutely. And just before we get into the good stuff today, we're going to be talking about, um, your new book and some of the topics in there, which I recently dove into. Uh, but just give people the short version of like your, your, your sales story.
[00:01:29] It seems like you've dedicated and do a lot of good work. And I'm just curious how you got into sales and why, and just the short version of that. And then we'll get into the tactical stuff. Yeah. I didn't want to be in sales. Okay. I mean, let's put it that way. I mean, Hey, you read the book at the beginning of the book, I talk about how I did not want to get into sales.
[00:01:47] Um, I only got into sales because I got too many speeding tickets. Now. Nobody was hurt. Nobody was hard, but I had to get a job that supplied me with a car. Um, what's funny is I was such a good salesperson. I got fired from my first two sales jobs. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. See what it was finally my third job where I finally, my boss sat me down.
[00:02:05] I thought I was getting fired. Sat me down and really told me you got to focus on the customer. What are the needs of the customer, not what you want to get out of them. Wow. What a, what a good lesson early on in your sales career? I mean, I think there's still a lot of people that haven't quite figured that out.
[00:02:21] Oh, well, don't worry. I didn't figure it out the first time he said it to me, it was, it took a number of years for that to sink in. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I treated customers as if they were bowling pins. My objective was just to knock them down and move on to the next customer, uh, that that's not a way that you really.
[00:02:41] Deliver customer expectations properly just saying it just creates a lot of, um, uh, problems after the session. Yeah. Yeah, no, I totally agree. My, my first experience in sales, I've been in sales a little over 10 years and it was very typical, you know, very transactional trading people like, you know, Transactions and commissions, and that was it.
[00:03:01] Um, and there's still people that are doing that today. And so I'm just curious, what was your transition of like doing things kind of that way, and then, you know, having your, your, your managers sit you down and tell you, like you got to do that. And then how long did it take you to figure that out? Yeah, well, I mean, it's, it's been a journey I'm still on, but here's w here's what I began to realize is that you really have a lot more fun with the customer, because now you're engaging with the it's not confrontational.
[00:03:27] It's no longer confrontational. You're having a dialogue with the customer and you're really coming alongside them. And there's this funny thing that happens trust is created. Wow, there's a novel experience, you know, cause I, I didn't think trust was part of the sales equation up to that point in time.
[00:03:45] Then I began to realize that trust is the foundation from which all sales are created. Hmm, then you really begin to say, okay, now we're talking about how do you create integrity? How do you create a level of confidence? How do you, how do you really become a person of influence and impact with people?
[00:04:05] You come in contact with that, you know, you start putting them that paradigm in place, and it changes everything about how you look at sales and more importantly, how the customer looks at you. Mm. Hmm. Okay. And so how does somebody who's maybe struggling? Like where do they get started to try to adopt some of these things?
[00:04:26] Well, first of all, what you got to focus in on is not what you sell. I don't really care what anybody sells and I really don't even care how they sell. What I care about is why they sell now. And I'm not, I'm not copying Simon Sinek. He wrote the book why? And I understand, but it, it, it's why. We're in sales to help people see and achieve what they did not think was possible.
[00:04:49] That's what our objective is, help them see and achieve what they did not think was possible. And what does that mean? Well, many times the customer doesn't know what they can see. They, you know, they think they see this, but ah, no, we have to come alongside the and help them to see something. And then they don't have any clue as to how to achieve them.
[00:05:08] Well, we can help them achieve it because of what we sell. So now it's not what we sell though. It's the outcome. That they're going to create from it. That's the value. That's the whole reason we're in sales is to create outcomes that have allowed the customer to see and achieve what they didn't think was possible.
[00:05:27] Um, When you do that, you get to do the happy dance and you say, Hey, you know what? Sales is a kick in the pants. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I know for my own experience, transitioning from that, you know, really typical sales person of, you know, always be closing and, and, and, you know, all the things that everybody, all the reasons that people hate salespeople.
[00:05:47] Right. That was me. Um, and when I really transitioned to just helping and serving sales became so much fun and I hate to say it, but it actually came easier. It became a lot easier and I'm a few years older than you. I even had the polyester plaid suit. Okay. Okay. I, I, at the age of 22, 23 personified, the slickest salesperson you've ever met out there, I even had the.
[00:06:14] The plaid vest that went with the polyester plaid suit. Okay boy. And yeah. Yeah. And man, I think goodness, there weren't cameras back me. Wait and see. Now you stop and think about that though, but that's a stereotype that a lot of people have about sales and that's still, when a lot of salespeople are out there trying to do, they're trying to see the only good sale.
[00:06:37] Is the one that leads to the next sale because two things have happened. One of two things or both things happen. One you're either going to get more business from that customer or two, they're going to refer you and pass you along to somebody else. I want to make sure that every door I don't close sales, I hate ABC always be closing.
[00:06:58] Okay. Okay. I mean, I, I get it. Alec Baldwin played that role. Well, always be closing. I get that, but I want to reply, you know, I've released with, ABV always bring value, all bring value and, and now that's nothing new there, but here here's what happens. See, I don't want to close this closing a sale. Sounds like, you know, you've arrived at the terminal, the, the termination of your flight.
[00:07:21] No, no, no. I want to say it's the opening. We opened a relationship. That's what we do. And it's amazing. But when, when you begin shifting your head in that direction, it's amazing how many more opportunities you see. It's amazing how, what you, you think was just a one-off deal and you move on to the next one.
[00:07:40] Suddenly you realize, wait a minute, there's a whole lot more. Business here. Yeah. And what it does is it creates the opportunity to do land and expand land is where I land you as a customer. And then I expand, I expanded and because you're buying more or you're referring me to other people, but if I'm going to put the time and effort into getting you as a customer, do not want to get an ROI on my investment that keeps on giving and giving.
[00:08:06] Yeah, I do. So I never want to have a one-off. I never want to have a one-off transaction. Hmm. That's the lane I love, I love what you said there. The only good sale is the sale that leads to the next sale. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it, it, it just change. It, it changes because here's what I see happening. So in the transactional salesperson, they, they get down to the close and, and their mind is already on to the next customer.
[00:08:35] They're there. Their mind is already going. Marty. They've already spent the commission check. They've got, they've got commission breath. They've got commissioned breath and. That they've spent the good and they're onto the next one. And the smart salesperson sitting there saying, wait a minute, hold it.
[00:08:53] There's a whole lot more business here. If I take the time to listen, bye, take the time to help them. And what happens is it, it's amazing. The number of doors opened up and this is what's also interesting is the transactional sales person surprising enough is very much. PEs is very much a pessimist. Now people argue with me on this, but let, let me explain why I feel this way because they live for deal to deal.
[00:09:20] And if that deal doesn't come through there, they are down in the dumps. Conversely, the one that says every sale I get leads to the next sale is the optimist. And you know what? When you have an optimist mindset, when you have an optimistic mindset, it's amazing how many more opportunities you see because you just look at things differently.
[00:09:39] You look at things totally differently. And you as a result, not only do you create more opportunities, but more opportunities come to you because you become a magnet that people want to come to you. Yeah. All right. I want to dig into some of that stuff for a second. I just ju I just dived into the book on audible, which I was happy to find it there.
[00:10:00] And I'm on chapter six so far. And, um, one thing that you talk about early on in the book is that that confidence. The confidence confidence as is. And, and so this pessimistic salesperson that you're talking about live, deal to deal. Yeah. Typically, and I've been there, so I get it right where every deal is, make or break, or you're defining yourself worth based on whether you win or lose the deal.
[00:10:27] Um, and, and, and once you have that confidence that you talk about in the book, it's, it's it. Your prospects can feel that it's almost like you're helping, you're serving, you know, you're adding value, you know, and you could care less if they sign up for your, with you or not, or do business, like honestly, in, in, in the people that I work with, I tell them, look, the goal is simple.
[00:10:51] Make sure they have a good experience, regardless if you work together or not. And some of those relationships with the people that we didn't do business are your best advocates, because they're like, wow, they weren't the right fit. But that was a great experience. And they want to rescind your business.
[00:11:05] It's amazing. The aura that you cast and what does it do when you are more confident, not error, not arrogant. Yeah. Just confident in who you are. It's amazing how the customer becomes more confident. And when both parties are confident, it's amazing. The dialogue of the information that gets exchanged. One example is this, if I'm confident talking with you, we'll say you're the customer.
[00:11:31] Okay. I am very comfortable asking you a question that you don't have the answer to. And I don't have the answer to, but you know what we're going to have. We're going to have a conversation collectively. We're going to figure out a better solution. You see? If I wasn't confident, there's no way I would ask you a question that I could not answer, but you, because I don't want to be prominent because I don't want to be put on the spot, but what does that do?
[00:11:54] It limits the dialogue. Yeah. And most people get caught up in too scared to ask those types of questions. They are scared because they're not confident because here's the whole thing. If I'm confident, I know that there's plenty of other transactions out there. I also firmly believe in that, Hey, if I get a no, I'm not worried about it because I got somebody else out there and know is only a moment in time.
[00:12:18] And no, it was only because you know what? I just did not demonstrate enough value for this person at this moment in time. I may be able to change that a week down the road, a month down the road, a year down the road, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to worry about it now as a salesperson. I'm competitive.
[00:12:35] Believe me. I am. I, I have my own company. I set my own goals. Believe me. I am brutal on myself. Come the end of the month, come to the end of the quarter, but I'm confident in knowing. That my success is not driven by this month's numbers by success is driven by the outcomes I've helped my customers achieve.
[00:12:58] Yeah. And that, that reminds me of something else you said in the book too, not everything worth doing, needs to be measured. Tell me a little bit about that. That is, I'll tell you what this I have seen. I have been called into too many organizations where they measure everything. You know, they, they, they believe that if we measure everything, it's just going to help and go.
[00:13:21] Why are you wasting time measuring this? And I see people with all kinds of social media measurements. I see people with all kinds of, and you know, now it's interesting. I was dealing with a company yesterday, yesterday. I was on the phone and a critical measurement to them is the net promoter score. Now the net promoter score is kind of a, maybe not really a matrix, but it's a scoring index of how the customers feel about you.
[00:13:48] And to them that that was, that was the number they measured that was at NC. So to that organization, that was a number they're not wasting their time measuring all these other stats, measuring all these other things. Because again, it just becomes a sidebar conversation where we get caught up. W w we become a spreadsheet jockey, and all we're doing is we're managing.
[00:14:09] Oh, wow. How many sales? Okay. Sales managers pay attention. Sales managers listen up right here. Are you managing your organization by what you see on the CRM dashboard or on your Excel spreadsheet? If you are shame on. Those are just indicators. Those are just indicators. Yeah. Measure how much value? I mean, like how can you measure how much value you've given your prospect or how many new, you know, relationships that you've made that maybe they said no, and you know, now's not the right time, but how do you measure that?
[00:14:42] You can't. You can't and this is where I, I go ballistic over Oregon and I get it. I understand it. You know, what are the number of phone calls you made, whether the number of conversations yet, how many minutes did you spend on the phone? All that sort of stuff, you know, but here here's the deal, the measurements that count.
[00:15:00] And I talk about them in the book. How many qualified leads yet? Not leads, but qualified, true prospects, not suspects, not leads, but qualified prospects. And what is the timeframe? That it takes to turn them into customers. And what's the percentage of those that turn into customers. That's it? Those are the three measurements.
[00:15:19] That's it? That's it focus? Focus on what you can close. I see too many. This is where marketing gets into trouble. Marketing has this metric of creating leads. I can, I can go find some old phone books. I I'm sure I can find some somewhere and dumped them on somebody's lap and say, Hey, here's, here's a million, here's a million leads.
[00:15:44] You know? No, I want qualified, qualified because a lead becomes a suspect. Then they become a prospect. I want qualified prospects. And how often do you see our salespeople treating them? Like they're. Like they're ready to buy in that, you know, in that sort of scenario before they actually are like, they're not, uh, they're, they're treating them like a prospect when they're really just a suspect.
[00:16:09] Oh, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Th this, this, and this happened, especially to new people where the customer calls up and there's an inbound inquiry, or like, you know, the, the person downloads an ebook or a PDF, and they automatically think that they're a qualified customer. No, they were just somebody bored. Looking to download an ebook.
[00:16:26] Okay. That does not make them a prospect or the person who calls up and says, Hey, I just want to get a quick price on something like a quick price quote does not make a qualified customer. Okay. Get over that. That means they're just shopping for price to use it against you with somebody else. That's all.
[00:16:43] Yeah. Or they're giving you some busy work to get off the phone to you. Send send me, you know what? I don't have time to talk right now, but I'm really interested send me some information, which you, Oh, come on. He's getting sold in that scenario, man. Wow. Send me some info. Um, you know what? I'll have a chance to take a look at it later.
[00:17:05] If you just send me some information and then I'll call you when I'm ready. Yeah. I mean, I like to, even in those scenarios, I like to challenge the prospect a little bit. Like, Hey, I'm kind of feeling like you're not really interested, or this is not a huge priority, you know, tell me if I'm wrong, but you know, we need to kind of go through this process.
[00:17:24] Yeah. Um, you gotta poke. You gotta, you gotta poke. Cause if you don't poke, you're gonna wind up with a, with a pipeline. That's a sewer line because you're going to have all this crap or fluff in your, in your pipeline. We like to call it fluff. It is, it is. Yeah. Hey, let me tell you something. I used to have a manager who I worked for that I kept a lot of fluff in my pipeline.
[00:17:47] And the reason being is because it kept him off my back. Yeah. And that's the only reason I had it in there was because he didn't bug me. Yeah. You know? Yeah. He was too stupid to see that it was the same fluff was in there month after month. He was a, he was a spreadsheet jockey. You got it. You got it.
[00:18:07] Yeah. And that is, I mean, that ha that's still. Happening today, you know, there's so many people just shoving deals in their pipeline to keep their managers off their back to look like they're doing a half decent job because they don't want to lose their job or, you know, and, and then, you know, come into the month and 40% of it is junk.
[00:18:28] Then what. That's exactly what I mean. This is, I mean, I tell the story in the book about the guy I worked with every Friday, we had to go in and justify our numbers. And, um, we were having a tough quarter and we, every Friday we'd walk into our boss's office and get our head handed to us and guy I worked with, um, he, he was saying he was gonna make his number, make us number, make us number all the way through the quarter.
[00:18:55] We kept saying, when are you going to tell Bob that you're not going to make your numbers is I'm not gonna tell him until week 12 while you are getting your butts chewed every week. I only, I'm only going to get one, but chewing. Uh, all right. So let's, let's talk about a little bit, um, what are the, what's the solution like let's, what are some of the things people can expect to learn and, and fix some of these problems by reading your new book?
[00:19:23] Well, he here's the here's the biggest thing. Biggest thing is understanding of why you sell and understand why you sell. You have to understand who you sell to. So I talk a lot about in there in terms of your ICP, your persona, what is your ideal customer profile? You, you you've got to stay very. Focused in on that.
[00:19:40] There is no sense for a steak restaurant steakhouse restaurant to open up in the middle of a town where everybody is a vegan. Okay. It just doesn't work. Okay. But this is what too many salespeople are doing. You have to make sure that you're spending all of your time. Zeroed in on just people that are quote that really fit the profile of who your perfect customer is.
[00:20:02] And I walked through the book in there and there's a host of other things in there, but it's, it's getting tight. And then what you have to understand is why are they buying from you again? Not, not what you're selling, but what's the outcome they're achieving. So you really begin to create this very tight profile.
[00:20:18] Cause I talk about in the book, I read to have a few prospects. I spend a lot of time with then a lot of prospects. I don't have time to follow up because that's the other problem. Too many people have a sales process that they can't stay on top of. They simply cannot stay on time. Don't start what you can't finish.
[00:20:33] Hey, in today's world, it's taken 15 to 20 touches to get somebody. To engage with you. So don't sit there and say, I'm going to make a bunch of dots. I'm going to make a bunch of dials, or I know, I know, I know I don't have time to make dials. So I'm just going to send out a lot of emails everyday. I'm going to send out even more emails, more emails, more emails.
[00:20:53] Let me tell you something that is like that's stupid. A bad email is sent to one. Person's a bad email. Uh, a bad email sent to a thousand people. Is really stupid, but how many T how many BA you know, w we could ask the audience right now? How many bad stupid emails have you received today? And I bet all of us would probably say we're already in the double figures.
[00:21:13] Oh yeah. Definitely way too way too many. And you're cute. Oh, I mean, everybody's got these little cute guy. I got this one the other day. In fact that blasted the person on. Linked LinkedIn. He said, uh, are you extinct like the T-Rex and that's the reason you haven't responded to me? I mean, give me a break idiot.
[00:21:34] Gotcha. It caught your attention, but it caught my attention and I, and I wiped it out a few things and I pushed it over to LinkedIn. And let me tell you something, people, because here's the whole thing. He was trying to sell me something I don't need. Cause he had done zero research on who I am zero. So going back to the same, like you are not his ICP.
[00:21:54] Uh, yeah, that's right. That's right. I finally sent him a note by my book. Did I ever heard back from him? No. Well, uh, all right. So one thing that I loved in the book that you said, tell us about who is the most important person you will ever sell. Me me. It's yourself. It's yourself. That that is. So many times this really hit home to me.
[00:22:22] A number of years ago, I was working with Mercedes-Benz of Canada and, um, salespeople in every one of their dealerships, every one of their stores around the country. And, um, it was really kind of cool and they all drove Mercedes. They, they all drove Mercedes. Now some of these guys, some of these, some of these, some of these men, some of these women were, were 20, 21 years of age, first real job.
[00:22:47] And here they are driving a Mercedes, but you stop and think about this. Could they be driving a Nissan? Could they be driving a Chevy? No. No, they got gotta drive the seed. They have to sell themselves first that the Mercedes is the ultimate driving machine. No, I'm sorry. That's BMW. They have to, they have to first really accept that the Mercedes is, is the car of choice.
[00:23:15] Is the vehicle of choice. You see, you have to, if you can't sell yourself, there's no way you can sell another customer. There is no way you can tell the customer, and this really comes up regarding price. This is why I say there are more price, cap, price discounts given because of the failure of the salesperson to believe in the price then are given based on the demands of the salesperson.
[00:23:38] I mean, excuse me, the demands of the customer. Yeah, we, we all think, Oh, just prices too. They're they're they're not gonna, they're not gonna accept my price. They're not going to accept high price. I better go ahead and cut it right now. I better go ahead and cut an or you give the price to the customer and you go, but you know, we, we can, we can make adjustments, we can make adjustments.
[00:23:56] What are you doing? You're telling the customer that you don't believe. In the value you can deliver to them. Yeah. I mean, that shows very little confidence. Oh, very little conference. See, but what does it go back to what we talked about initially confidence, you have to be confident in your ability to influence and impact other people.
[00:24:22] I mean, I've definitely. Fallen to that victim to that many times, right? Just because you want to get the next deal and move on or you're, you're exhausted. Whatever the case is, you give a discount and you shouldn't have, I've done it many times. Anybody in sales I'm sure has done it. Um, but I always have more respect for the people when maybe I'm on the other side buying and I'm trying to push for a discount and they hold firm.
[00:24:43] And they won't budge. And what's that tell you, what's that tell you, because this is the whole thing. If, if, if, if they suddenly give you a discount because you know, you just ask for it, it, that, that damages the credibility that damages the entire, you know, if they give you a discount and they take something out of the package, fine.
[00:25:07] I have no problem with that. Take something out of the package, but do not sit there and deliver the exact same thing to you with a, with a discount, just because you asked for it, that is like, I'm sorry, but you will lose. And as soon as you get, as soon as you do that to one customer, you'll do that to another customer.
[00:25:24] You'll do that. Discounting is like heroin. It's like meth. You become addicted to it. Yeah. And then you suddenly believe that you can't close this. You can't close any without it, without a discount. Yeah. And, and, and I liked that. You said like, there, there is, it's not that discounting is okay, but not discounting without getting something in return.
[00:25:43] Right. If it's a new industry that you're trying to break into and. You know, you really need a case study or, you know, uh, something like that. And they're willing to do that for you, or, you know, you scale back on what's included, you know, that's appropriate, but just discounting without getting something in return without a masking shows a level of weakness, a lack of confidence, and it makes it easier for you to just think that you got to do that every time to close a deal.
[00:26:08] That's uh, it, it it's, it's the Mark of a non-confident sales person. And if you're, and if you deal with buying departments, you deal with purchasing departments. You deal with anybody who does a lot of buying. Believe me, they can smell that a mile away, and they're going to, they're going to take you to the cleaners and you're gonna roll over and play dead and keep giving them more discounts, more discounts, more discounts, and, and Hey fine.
[00:26:35] Give them a discount. We'll just take it out of your commission. Does that sound good? Yeah. See how many discounts are given then? Yeah, well, that's the whole thing, because this is so stupid. Well, you know, on, on this big of a price, we can give a 10% discount. Yeah. But if your margins only 20%. And you give a 10% discount.
[00:26:54] You've now given away 50% of your margin, excuse me. Is that a good business model? Maybe you should go back and take basic economics. Well, Mark, it's been fantastic having you on. I really appreciate it. And, uh, any final thoughts, where can people find the book other than audible and anything else you want to let them know that we'll include in the show notes for them?
[00:27:17] Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what the best. Hey, I got a lot of stuff out on the website. The sales Hunter. Yes. Hunter is my real last name. I didn't change it. Anyway. The sales hunters, the website, tons of stuff out there. And of course the book is a mind for sales. Hey, can grab it and bookstores, you can grab it online.
[00:27:34] Any anywhere, any anywhere fine books are sold. Awesome. We'll include any audit and the audible is read by the author. Always nice. It's a little weird when it's read by a computer generated voice or something funky. Uh, so we will include the links to the book, to the website in the show notes for everybody.
[00:27:53] If you enjoy today's episode, write us a review, share with your friends, and we're always listening for your feedback. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of sales hustle. Are you a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level? If the answer is yes, then I want you to go over to sales cast.com, check us out.
[00:28:15] And if you feel that you are ready, set up a time to talk with me and my co-founder Chris, I'm your host column Mitchell. And if you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a review. And share the podcast with your friends.