Collin Mitchell welcomes Jeff Swan in this episode of the Sales Hustle podcast as they tackle tactical stuff about sales. Let’s hear from Jeff how he started in the sales world and shares a ton of sales optimizing nuggets in this episode.
Jeff Swan is an Ambassador | RevLeague, Sequences at RevGenius. He is also the Founder and Sales Sequence Optimizer at RevUp Sales. He helps book more meetings from cold prospecting with the 3-step Outbound SOS framework for thoughtful, creative, and human outbound sales sequence.
You can listen to Jeff Swan Podcast called “Fill the Funnel” at https://fillthefunnel.simplecast.com/. You can also visit https://revup90.com/ as Jeff Swan offers a free 30-min session sequence review.
If you’re listening to the Sales Hustle podcast, please subscribe, share, and we’re listening for your feedback. If you are a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a time with Collin and co-founder Chris.
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Episode 64 - Jeff Swan
Collin Mitchell: [00:00:00] Welcome to the sales hustle. The only no BS podcast, where we bring you the real raw uncut experiences from sales change makers across various industry's the only place where you can get what you're looking for to up yours sales game today's episode is brought to you by sales cast sales cast helps.
[00:00:24] Sales professionals transform the relationship building process and win their dream clients. I'm your host, Colin Mitchell. Jeff. Welcome to the show. How are you?
[00:00:37] Jeff Swan: [00:00:37] I'm fantastic. Colin. Thanks for having me. That was a stellar intro, my friend. Oh yeah.
[00:00:43] Collin Mitchell: [00:00:43] Um, I'm, I'm excited to talk about this topic. I have a feeling that, uh, this is going to be educational for me as well.
[00:00:50] So. Um, that's one of the biggest benefits of having a sales podcast is I get to learn a whole heck of a lot. Um, well interviewing great people like yourself. So, um, before we jump into the tactical stuff and have a ton of fun here, just give us the short version of your sales story.
[00:01:09] Jeff Swan: [00:01:09] Yeah, so, um, real quick, uh, I essentially put myself through marketing school by, uh, selling through commission sales at best buy, uh, or best buy Canada, which was, uh, commissioned at the time.
[00:01:20] Um, so I've never really been able to distinguish between the sales and the marketing side of the equation. And I just live in smarketing. So over the past 15 years in, in holding various roles at high growth companies, I kind of developed a framework. For, um, sales sequences that don't suck and which led me to start rev up where I actually do this for other people now.
[00:01:43] So super exciting. I get to work with the best outbound teams ever. Um, and, uh, yeah, I'm really excited.
[00:01:51] Collin Mitchell: [00:01:51] Awesome. Okay. So how do you think your marketing experience has helped your, you know, helped you in, in, in, in sales roles and, you know, sequencing and just kind of all of the above?
[00:02:03] Jeff Swan: [00:02:03] Yeah, no great question.
[00:02:05] Um, in fact, when you look at the evolution of sales, even over my career, like the last 15 years, um, you see this, we went from these simple email marketing tools. To these really advanced like sales engagement, marketing automation, um, just the amount of stuff you can do with technology these days. Um, what what's really cool is that I've been able to leverage both sides of the fence.
[00:02:29] So leverage marketing tools to do sales and I've been doing it well. Well before sales engagement was even a thing, but now that every sales rep has to be a content marketer has to be a social selling superstar has to be a video marketer now and an email marketer. Like all of these put together, these are all things that I've been living in since I was born in my career.
[00:02:51] Right. So, uh, so yeah, how it helps me is that I'm able to understand the tools and the, the concept of like one to many marketing, but also be able to apply one to one principles of personalizing your outreach, helping a specific individual, a person, um, and just doing it in a more scalable way.
[00:03:12] Collin Mitchell: [00:03:12] Mm. Okay.
[00:03:13] And so, and, and there's just so many tools these days, like it's, and I have, you know, the classic shiny object syndrome. So I like to test out all the tools and then, you know, new tool comes out and I think it's the best thing and get in there and start to try it out. Kind of get frustrated a lot of times.
[00:03:34] So, um, what, you know, what are kind of the go-to tools that, that you've seen that are you kind of stick with and, uh, you've seen people have the most
[00:03:44] Jeff Swan: [00:03:44] success with sure. I know that, uh, you know, um, I can a hundred percent share that. Uh, I think Colin is that I just love to geek out on tools and tech, but, um, you know, shoring it down to really the things that work, the things that I use every day.
[00:03:58] Um, I use, uh, stuff like outreach as an example, a fantastic tool. I was introduced to it a couple of years ago when, before they were, you know, a unicorn, uh, and uh, I thought that the simplicity of how they put together their interface and, and how they make it easy to kind of batch, um, your outbound, your outreach, you know, batch your calls, batch, your LinkedIn touches, batch your emails and all that stuff.
[00:04:22] I found that it was a very elegant solution that kind of trimmed the fat, like a lot of the things. That, uh, that shiny object syndrome you're talking about, um, that other tools have they, they, they didn't suffer for that for the longest time. So I chose outreach as my go-to tool. Um, so we would, that's the that's one.
[00:04:39] Another tool is I can't live without my, my LinkedIn. Um, you know, most people have sales navigator. I have a grandfathered premium account that I've had since, I don't know, 2010, so it's like 10 bucks a month and I get almost everything from sales navigator. Uh, and I love it because it allows me to know exactly who's working.
[00:05:00] At what company today. Um, so that's super fantastic. Um,
[00:05:05] Collin Mitchell: [00:05:05] then there's a lot, there's a lot of really cool features that have come out with, with, with navigator more recently, like I used to have to have a hack where I would save people's LinkedIn activity URLs on a Google sheet so that I could make sure I'm engaging with the right people and, you know, um, that I'm nurturing relationships with.
[00:05:21] And now sales navigator makes that so much easier. Um, But I'm still so frustrated with the two inbox thing, like, get it together, LinkedIn, like why is there two inboxes, please tell me. Um, and, and even when you send like InMail or, you know, messages from the inbox, like it comes off as very spammy. Like it's like, it's like, they know it's, you're trying to sell them something, you know?
[00:05:47] Um, so why, why two inboxes? What, what, what are you, what are you, what are you, what are your thoughts on that?
[00:05:54] Jeff Swan: [00:05:54] You know, the first time I got a prospecting email from somebody that it literally said LinkedIn sales navigator on it. Um, I just like, I know what it's, I know what it is. So maybe I have a different opinion on it, but it doesn't make me feel like a human.
[00:06:08] Um, it makes me know for a fact, even though I probably know, it makes me know for a fact that this person is either automating or just flipping through a list and, and, and kind of going through the motions. So I'm not a big fan of the two inbox thing. I'm not a fan of like, Yeah. Um, but I mean, that's just me.
[00:06:25] Collin Mitchell: [00:06:25] Yeah. And so now I've even seen some new things rollout where they're kind of like, you got to approve a message to come in. I dunno. Have you seen that? So on LinkedIn now, like sometimes when you get an InMail, um, you got to like approve, like the message before it can even come in, which is just another step, um, which is kind of annoying, but.
[00:06:44] All right. So let's talk about, since we're talking about LinkedIn, um, let's talk about some of the things that you, you know, like to work on as far as like integrating LinkedIn into the sequences and you know how to do that and let's get into some of the good stuff.
[00:07:00] Jeff Swan: [00:07:00] For sure. For sure. Well, LinkedIn again, it's my friend.
[00:07:04] I mean, I sell to salespeople, so like sales leaders, so it's really easy to see that my entire market is on LinkedIn. Right? So for somebody like myself and my team, like we can absolutely use LinkedIn to its full potential. Um, and what, what we use it for is really to create that kind of human approach.
[00:07:22] To prospecting. So instead of batching and blasting, which was, I I'll tell you, like five years ago, six years ago, it was very, very effective. Um, what we find now is that, um, people can sniff an automated email from a mile away. And so really it's about creating that human touch and making sure that you're connecting with the person and what, what is going on in their world.
[00:07:43] And that's important to them and tying it into what you're doing. So what we do is we kind of start with LinkedIn a lot of times. So, um, now we have two kind of different approaches. We start with email and phone call and kind of. Move into LinkedIn. And then another approach is that we start with LinkedIn, build a relationship, and then we choose a, an opportune time at a later date to start.
[00:08:04] Collin Mitchell: [00:08:04] All right. So let's stop there for one second. Um, I like that, you know, and I love that you bring this up, right? Because I think a lot of times salespeople are looking for that silver bullet. Like, Hey, just tell me what's the, what's the way that's going to work. Give me the, give me the script. Give me the sequence.
[00:08:18] Give me the playbook in my marching orders. And it's just not that simple, like sales is just too dynamic. Like you're dealing with different people in different areas, different industries, you know, some are more active on LinkedIn. Some are not. So having, you know, different approaches, um, is definitely the, the recipe for success, in my opinion.
[00:08:38] And just being open and willing enough to test and try new things and always be learning, um, is, is huge for what I've, you know, my experience in sales. Um, so tell me, like, when does one make sense versus the other and kind of the reasoning behind the two different approaches?
[00:08:54] Jeff Swan: [00:08:54] Well, I like to, um, I like to look at it as this is that, um, so.
[00:08:59] It depends on the customer, but for my own, I'll just use my own outreach. As an example is if I'm looking at a high priority prospect, somebody that I know I can help, um, they've literally said the words, like I need help with my sequences or something like that. Um, I'm going to do a personal one-to-one.
[00:09:15] I'm going to build a relationship with that person and I'll let them know that M uh, let them become aware of what we do. And then I'm going to do the soft pitch. So it's going to be a very different sell than somebody who I might not know about. They might not have an active LinkedIn profile. They may not be talking about the specific thing we're looking at.
[00:09:33] And so them, I'm going to put in more of an automated, not an automated, but like, uh, email first plus phone call, um, sequence instead. So it really is dependent on the buyer. Like, what are they doing? When their digital footprint and how am I going to adjust from there? Now? What, like, just, just for reference when I'm talking about this is when I'm considering they're the same priority account, right?
[00:09:57] So they're the same importance to me as a seller, they would equal. So that, that's how I prioritize there. The more personable, the more active on LinkedIn, they're going to get that personal touch first. And then personal
[00:10:10] Collin Mitchell: [00:10:10] touch being
[00:10:11] Jeff Swan: [00:10:11] what it might be, something like, um, I'm going to follow them. I'm gonna read what they're doing.
[00:10:16] I'm going to comment on what they're doing. So I mean, to understand, like what do they care about? And I'm going to engage in conversation and through that conversation, I'm going to define my next step. Okay. When I put them in that email call sequence. Okay. So,
[00:10:33] Collin Mitchell: [00:10:33] so you're going to nurture it a bit on LinkedIn before putting it into the, more into the sequence, but
[00:10:39] Jeff Swan: [00:10:39] direct sequence, right?
[00:10:40] Like the more direct sales sequence.
[00:10:42] Collin Mitchell: [00:10:42] Yeah. The direct cell sequence that maybe has a bit more manual tasks in there as well. Yup.
[00:10:48] Jeff Swan: [00:10:48] A hundred percent like first email, typically 10 to 20% manual. Um, you know, for your mid tier prospects, 50% manual and your top tier kind of thing. Um, and then it kind of goes from there.
[00:11:03] Collin Mitchell: [00:11:03] Okay. And so, um, and, and so tell me, uh, you know, you, you, you are a sales sequence optimizer, right? So where do you, what do you see with people using sequencing and using, you know, these, this tech and, and things like that, um, where they create the playbooks and kind of set it and forget it, or have too much, you know, too many things that are automated and not personalized and not manual.
[00:11:29] Just walk me through some of the things that you see and what are like some small changes that people can make to just really optimize their sequences and see more success.
[00:11:36] Jeff Swan: [00:11:36] Yeah. Great question. I do see a lot of people who buy into the concept of, you know, the four X ROI of installing outreach, that kind of thing.
[00:11:43] And then they end up using it like a marketing automation tool where, um, you know, it's the equivalent of, this is a newsletter list. They subscribe, they want to hear from me and all that. Um, that, that stuff doesn't work. Like you can't treat it like a newsletter list because these people don't know who you are.
[00:11:59] Um, they're, they're not, they're not there. They're not in that head space of consuming your content, um, uh, in, in a positive way. Right? So what, what we see is that I find it very effective that if you know your customers, so this is a very bland term. I'm sorry, but no, your customer, if you do your pre-call research, at least spend three minutes per prospect.
[00:12:22] At least find three things that you can, two of them, two of the three is typically verifying that they are you're, you're a good fit for you. There's relevancy. And then the third one, I typically look for some type of buying trigger. So something, they say something that's happening in their world, like they're hiring new SDRs or, um, they've explicitly stated that they're looking for help with their sequences.
[00:12:41] That kind of thing. Um, so doing that by itself allows you to make that first touch more, um, human, more approachable. And so, and then from there, you can leverage that research that you did to make the next touches more, um,
[00:12:57] Collin Mitchell: [00:12:57] personable. And what's your thoughts on using video on that first touch with that personalized researched, um, outreach.
[00:13:05] Jeff Swan: [00:13:05] I don't like video on the first touch. Um, it's an, it's not because I don't like video. Cause if it gets through to the inbox and all that stuff, fantastic. Like it's great. But there is a challenge with deliverability on the first touch being image link or video heavy. Um, I always like a short, no more than three lines.
[00:13:23] No more than 50 word email for the first touch that just kind of. Almost explains the thesis, almost like the table of contents of your story that you're telling through your sequence. Okay. And then, uh, and so a very concise, straightforward message. Text-based no links, no ask for a time, anything like that.
[00:13:42] And then we kind of seep in things like video gifts and other personalization, uh, and later touch it.
[00:13:49] Collin Mitchell: [00:13:49] Mm. Okay. I I've I've um, I'm also not a big fan of video on the first touch. Um, and, uh, a lot of people that I talked to say the same, but I like, I like your reasoning there. Um, so video, would you recommend video on the second touch with no reply or only once they reply?
[00:14:14] Jeff Swan: [00:14:14] I like it on, let's see the third plus touch. I always like, again, the first couple of touches, I like to be really light and easy and straightforward. Right? So like the first touch is that three part email is saying the second one might be a very, very simple, but let's,
[00:14:29] Collin Mitchell: [00:14:29] let's, let's back up for one second.
[00:14:30] So break down the first touch email. They're really simple, not asking for anything, you know, not giving a link, not video. Let's walk me through like the structure of that
[00:14:41] Jeff Swan: [00:14:41] email. Sure. It's it's funny you say that because I'm actually releasing a content piece shortly on several of these three restructures.
[00:14:47] So I'll just use the one that's pressing in my mind right now. Um, but it's the, uh, the three-step, which is, uh, you start by answering a burning question that, you know, your prospects have. Okay. So, you know, their struggles, you, you, you work with them all the time. You see it, you have the conversation. So, you know, several struggles, uh, struggles that they have things like we don't have enough time.
[00:15:08] Um, we can't produce a consistent quality in what we do. Um, you know, our costs are too high. What have you, right? Yeah. Um, so answer a burning question. So in some way, it's either some people like the question, some people like a statement. Um, and you'll see very adamant and rabid people on both sides of that argument.
[00:15:28] But the first thing is to, yeah. So what it does is it uncovers the pains, uncovers roadblocks are facing in their day. Um, then what you want to do is, is, is take it a step further. So now you want to tie that in answer that burning question, give them a shed a little more, more light on what's happening.
[00:15:44] Okay. So give them insight that only, you know, or your co related to how your company uniquely solves that problem. Okay. And give them, uh, an in that insight, give some type of practical tactical tip that they can apply today, whether they work with you or not.
[00:16:00] Collin Mitchell: [00:16:00] All right. So give me, give me an example, like break it down.
[00:16:03] Like, what would your email look like for what you do and what it would say, reaching out to people?
[00:16:09] Jeff Swan: [00:16:09] So give me one second. I'm just going to pull this up Apple or whatever. Yeah. Okay. So a burning question is, um, I'll just, I'll just do the bullet points cause uh, yeah, hard to do copy on here. But the bullet points is the burning question is why aren't people reading my emails.
[00:16:25] Why aren't people ignoring my emails? Right. And then some insight is the reason this is happening is that, you know, you're in your prospects are inbox is flooded with the same quick question. Can I, can you help me? Blah, blah, blah, whatever. Okay. Your inbox, their inbox is flooded. Um, that's why it's happening.
[00:16:44] So what you can do to break the mold is do something different potentially with your subject lines or whatever else, that kind of thing. Right. Um, but being creative in your, in the way that you reach out to your people, Whether that's excuse me, through different channels or whatever else is something that you can actually make a difference.
[00:17:02] And then, um, the, the, obviously the third part is the close. So again, everybody has their own way of closing messages, but something like this, I like to just get them agree to agree with what I'm saying. So something like, are you finding that as well? Or how, how do you think that would work in your organization?
[00:17:20] You know, would this be helpful to you? By using this thing that I'm telling them about.
[00:17:26] Collin Mitchell: [00:17:26] Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a great example. I love that you're adding value, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're peaking their interest. You're when you're starting out, you know, pattern interrupt with, with, with, you know, that question, that burning question.
[00:17:39] Right. And then, um, You are basically giving them the answer to, to that. Um, and that's another opportunity for it to like resonate with them, like, Oh yeah. Okay. That's why I have that problem. Right. Um, and then, and then you're giving them like a kind of, you know, easy, possible solution to that. And then, and then closing it out without like a, like a hard, hard, close or hard sell.
[00:18:06] Um, I love that. All right. So, um, And then, so it, and then, so you're saying, okay, so let's, let's shift gears a little bit. I want to shift back to back to LinkedIn, right? So that's kinda like first, first touch, and then there, you got maybe classic bumps then you're putting in gifs or videos, things like that.
[00:18:24] Get that. Um, and so then on, on LinkedIn, how does your, is your messaging any different than if it was a first touch that started an email?
[00:18:35] Jeff Swan: [00:18:35] Yeah. So LinkedIn touches, I tend to make it a lot more personal. You're doing it manually. So you're spending the time to actually make that message anyway. And if people feel.
[00:18:46] Like, you know, this, I'm sure you look at your inbox, you feel a copy and paste. We're like an automated touch.
[00:18:52] Collin Mitchell: [00:18:52] So the big thing about LinkedIn though, is you really got to keep it short and sweet. Short, if it gets, because it just the nature of looking at it, it's going to look longer than, than an email, just because of the way that it's framed.
[00:19:06] And especially if you're looking at it on mobile. Um, and as soon as you see something that like, literally looks like it's going to take you 10 minutes to read, those are immediately ignored and, and really, um, destroy. Your, your trust building and rapport out the gate. So, so I, I'm a big fan of just keeping it really short and sweet.
[00:19:28] Um, and I liked that. You said keeping it personalized. You're already there. You got to do it manually. Um, so is it like really doing some research? Um, what I like to do is look for opportunities to reach out. So like they say something, they post something and following them, look for an opportunity or a reason to reach out and then use that to get that personal outreach.
[00:19:48] What's your, what's your thoughts?
[00:19:49] Jeff Swan: [00:19:49] A hundred percent. So like, as an example, when I first even started offering sequence optimization services, um, the, literally my first day prospecting on LinkedIn, I saw somebody asked the words, I need help with my sequence. It was
[00:20:05] Collin Mitchell: [00:20:05] right place, right time. Huh?
[00:20:07] Jeff Swan: [00:20:07] Yay. Right. So, um, so obviously what I did was I, I mentioned, I didn't want to say, Hey, I do this as a service, blah, blah, blah.
[00:20:14] It was more about, Hey, what are you looking for? Uh, for help, like what type of help are you looking for with your sequence? How can I help these, these are some areas that I do. How can I help? So I think it would have been like a, a line and a half message to, to your point. It was really short and sweet. I saw this, how can I help?
[00:20:34] Collin Mitchell: [00:20:34] And so I like that, right? Because most people would tend to jump to like, Hey, let's hop on a call. I'd love to talk about how I can help you. Yeah, w what's wrong with that?
[00:20:44] Jeff Swan: [00:20:44] The problem is it's not about me. It's about you, right? Like, um, I have this document I'll share with you. It's called the eight simple rules of sequences that don't suck.
[00:20:54] And one of them is be you focused. So it's all about you're like, I think Josh Braun said it best in his P a post yesterday on LinkedIn. It was like, um, your prospects don't care about what you do. They care about how you help them. Right. So the concept here is be you focused, be really focused on what they are trying to do and whether they explicitly stated great, you've got the cheat sheet, you know, the answer, right.
[00:21:17] If they don't explicitly say it, know it from your research or just what you'd know about that particular company role, like all that stuff. Right. You're you're able to create relevant outreach. Even somebody is a closed book online. You can create relevant outreach based on what you know. Yeah.
[00:21:33] Collin Mitchell: [00:21:33] And, and so many people, I mean, people are talking about this all the time, right?
[00:21:39] Like leading with value, making it. Why, why is it that sellers are still just having a really hard time grasping this concept?
[00:21:47] Jeff Swan: [00:21:47] They get the concept in their heads. Um, it's hard to put it in practice. Okay. And it's even harder to put in, in practice in any type of scalable workflow. Okay. So most people have issues with even doing effective personal research on a, on a prospect.
[00:22:06] They don't know what to look for. They just look for a bunch of things and try to put something together. So the way that we help with that is we give people a framework for what to look for. So we have a three by three framework. It's not unique to us. We've heard it from other people, but we simply look for those three things that I mentioned previously.
[00:22:23] Right. It makes it easy on the SDR to be able to know what to look for and know what strain they're looking at. Um, when they're researching, so that right there cuts down time, but most people don't know that they're just like, look for personalization
[00:22:38] Collin Mitchell: [00:22:38] stuff. And a lot of times it's obvious, like when it's just, you know, it's easy to see and maybe I'm a little bias.
[00:22:48] Right. Cause I just, I just, I get it right. But it's, it's easy to see when it's like, just really faked, right? Like you've, they've really just grabbed something. Pulled a little snippet from your bio or something like that thrown in, and like kind of forced it to, to, to work as personalization. Um, but like really good personalization is like, when it ties to like it's personalized and then ties to like what you do or how you help or what their problem is, or, you know, so, so talk to me a little bit about the framework.
[00:23:19] Like what is, what is good personalization versus bad personalization?
[00:23:25] Jeff Swan: [00:23:25] Yeah. Um, Apple have a bad personalization is hi Colin. It was great to see that you posted on blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, like very fricking obvious that you're filling out a form. Right. And then you talk about. That's why we help you optimize your sequences better than anyone else, you know, like it's completely not tied.
[00:23:52] It's just completely disconnected. It's just the one line that they say when even when you buy outreach, there's, there's um, installed templates that say personalization statement as the first line. Right? So, but the thing is, is that when you jump right to your value prop and you have no tie in whatsoever to it, it doesn't make any sense at all.
[00:24:12] Right. Yeah. So, um, when what's important with personalization is not that it's hyper personal, it doesn't need to be hyper personal. I'll go back to what I said previously about knowing your customer and knowing the jobs that they're trying to, to, to work on that they're trying to achieve. Right. Knowing what they're trying to do, and what's holding them back will make that personalization so much easier at scale.
[00:24:34] Right. But the trick is, is that you need to find something relevant. That you'll find on their profile, on their activities, on, on whatever, even the company website for all that matters that allows you to easily make it personal and make it look like you're a human that's doing it, but then still tie into what you're doing.
[00:24:52] So I'll give you a quick story of how this has done really, really poorly. Okay. For on my Twitter profile, I state that I liked boxing and hockey. Okay. So I used to live in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Um, I am not a Canucks fan. I'm just telling you this, but how many prospecting emails did I get for all about the conducts?
[00:25:12] So the first line would be, Hey Jeff. Yeah. Did you catch that Canucks game last night? I'm so-and-so and I help people do X with Y.
[00:25:22] Collin Mitchell: [00:25:22] Now a good example. A good example would be. They checked your LinkedIn activity. Yeah. Came across this piece of content and realized. That you hate the Canucks and then said something interesting.
[00:25:38] Jeff Swan: [00:25:38] Be careful. I have a lot of friends in Vancouver. I don't hate the Canucks.
[00:25:43] Collin Mitchell: [00:25:43] Maybe that was a little bit too much of an assumption on my part. Um, right, right. But, um, And so, so you got to go deeper than just like, Hey, you live here. So this makes sense. And then, I mean, you gotta be really careful making assumptions when trying to personalize, right?
[00:26:01] Like that's a big no-no. Um, but also also grabbing something and then going to your value prop. Yeah, that sucks too. Um, so what's the right way to do it. I mean, there's a lot of people out there that are still doing it this way, assuming because of where you live or what you do you care about, you know, these certain things I'm assuming, because you went to maybe a certain school that like, that's gonna catch your attention and you're going to give a shit I'm like, so what is the right way to do it?
[00:26:29] Like, what are some simple tactical things for, you know, SDRs BDRs, or even AEs that are like, Oh, man, this is how I've been doing it. And where do I start to do it
[00:26:42] Jeff Swan: [00:26:42] differently? So I'll tell you a quick disclaimer, okay. As an SDR, you're going to screw up. You're going to do things that are wrong. Don't be afraid of that.
[00:26:50] Like just have courage to like. Make a mistake, do stupid personalization with what I just described and still keep going. Just make sure you work towards what I'm going to tell you. Now when your, um, personalizing, what I recommend is, um, remember earlier I mentioned that struggle list, right? Like what people are struggling with, make a list of all of the things that your prospects are struggling with.
[00:27:13] Identify indicators of that struggle on their profile, on their activity, on their website. So things that are very, very simple. That you can look at and you can go, okay, Colin's having a problem with this thing. Okay. And just train yourself to look for those specific things and then make your personalization about that.
[00:27:33] So, and that makes it really easy. You do that approach. You're not making a hyper hundred percent personal message every time, like something completely out of the blend, other the blue you're, you're kind of leveraging what you already know about what this person's trying to accomplish. And you're creating, you're selecting the right phrase and you're wording it in a way that is accurate, actually personal and what they care about.
[00:27:56] Mm. Okay. So it's not, again, I'm not saying to go ahead and just grab a bunch of templates and snippets. It's not that it's just more about knowing what you're saying is the most important thing, not knowing what you're saying is what takes STR so long to manage in this process.
[00:28:13] Collin Mitchell: [00:28:13] Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think the biggest thing is.
[00:28:16] That you said out of all of that is like, you're going to make mistakes and that's totally okay. You're going to do it wrong and that's okay too. Um, but just always be open to like getting better and improving. And you know what, in order to test new things, you got to make mistakes and then learn from them and improve and get better.
[00:28:33] I still make a ton of mistakes. Oh all the time,
[00:28:37] Jeff Swan: [00:28:37] but things are part of my process calling. I'm not kidding. Like when I started a new sequence, typically I do, I need crappy within the next couple of optimizations. I'm I'm doing great. Like I'm getting well, well, above industry average, right? Yeah.
[00:28:50] Collin Mitchell: [00:28:50] Yeah. But see, it's about having the right mindset, right.
[00:28:52] Is like, it's okay to make mistakes, even being vulnerable enough. If you run a team to be like, Hey, I don't know, we're going to test this. It might work. It might not work, but we're going to do it together and figure it out. Um, and then also being willing to make those mistakes and, and be like, Hey, that's a win.
[00:29:07] Okay. That didn't work. So now we know that that doesn't work. What's that going to lead us to cause a lot of those mistakes are going to lead you to what does work. So there's value in that.
[00:29:16] Jeff Swan: [00:29:16] Yeah. They, they say like, um, uh, it's all about failing faster, right? Like those are the successful companies. They fail fast.
[00:29:23] So what that means is it doesn't mean they fail obviously a built a billion dollar company hasn't failed. But what they've done is they've got there on the back of many, many, many failed experiments and to find that one success formula. Yeah. Right. And I'll tell you, it just for the sales leaders out there, there's just a little bit of what you said.
[00:29:41] It's really important. Is that, um, I was taught a long time ago if I, one of my favorite mentors ever. Um, he was saying that no, the difference between, uh, an action and a value. And so when somebody puts out a really bad email and they get on, they get blasted on social media and they get blasted by their, their company, CEO, whatever.
[00:30:02] Um, as a sales leader, you need to identify as this is this indicative of a problem. That's behind, like, is it the problem behind the symptom? Like, is there something with their values that they're not understanding how to do that personalization properly? Or is this that they just screwed up on this one?
[00:30:19] They had a bad day. They're hung over because of the super bowl or something. I don't know, but like, no, no. The difference between an action and a value, and then that will make you better at coaching that behavior out in the future.
[00:30:31] Collin Mitchell: [00:30:31] Yeah. Yeah. They're like teachable moments, right? Exactly. It reminds me of my kids, you know, like when they do something, it's like you just going to get mad and like, tell them, Hey, we don't do that.
[00:30:40] Or are you going to take that opportunity to like, Hey, you know, was there some lack of education here? Like, you know, get some feedback, like, what do you think went wrong here? Okay, well, could you have maybe done differently, like encourage them because if you just slap their hand, right. And then, and tell them they did a bad job, then they're going to be really reluctant to like, try and test new things in the future.
[00:31:02] And that's a recipe for disaster
[00:31:05] Jeff Swan: [00:31:05] a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. Like it's, uh, I remember, I don't know if you ever heard this growing up, but I heard a lot from my mom because I said, so. Uh, guess how that worked with a guy like me? Uh, not at
[00:31:17] Collin Mitchell: [00:31:17] all. Yeah. I did hear that and it just made me want to do it, do whatever, do whatever I wasn't supposed to do even more.
[00:31:26] Yeah. Right,
[00:31:27] Jeff Swan: [00:31:27] right. Like it makes. And I learned later on in my career, I worked with an occupational psychologist for a while and I learned one of the things that he mentioned was that the word, because if it's used properly, So there's people that have are more resistant. So those people that are hanging up the phone or being really aggressive on your cold call, those people are highly resistant.
[00:31:46] They have these huge walls up, right with people like that, some using the word because, or the reason why this is why this technique is so popular in cold calls. The reason why I called is that that tears down defenses for resistant people. And it goes, okay. Tell me the reason, at least I want to hear the reason.
[00:32:07] Collin Mitchell: [00:32:07] Yeah. Yeah. Or, or, or they're just so used to hearing. No. You know, when you explain, when you explain or give them a reason or tell them why they're more open, I mean, people like learning, people want to hear what you have to say if it's executed properly. Um, and it's the same, you know, same thing too, going back to my kids again.
[00:32:25] It's like, you know, when I tell them no, but I'll, if I tell them no, and here's why then it's a much different outcome.
[00:32:34] Jeff Swan: [00:32:34] Much better, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it goes back to the whole thing though, is that, um, when leadership used to be very autocratic, very dictatorship, right. It used to be, you do what I say and not what I do, whatever else.
[00:32:49] Right. But we're, we're learning as leaders with a whole new crop of just amazing young people that are coming into the workforce. They're not accepting that autocratic leadership anymore. So when you're thinking about this as like, Le create a foster learning environment where people, like we said, it's okay to fail and make mistakes, just make progress and show continual learning.
[00:33:11] And yeah, you've got yourself a, uh, outbound team. Yeah.
[00:33:15] Collin Mitchell: [00:33:15] Yeah. Jeff, it's been a lot of fun having you on and talking about these things today. Tons of value for all the sales hustlers listening. Yeah. Or watching us live, um, any final thoughts and then, you know, anything that you want to let people know that we can include in the show notes for our podcast listeners, um, you know, where they can find you, any of the resources that you have, things like that, for sure.
[00:33:37] Jeff Swan: [00:33:37] So there's, there's two things I'd like to, uh, let you know about and, uh, they're on the same vein. So just one, everybody out there listening to know when you're filling your funnel and you're hustling and to do it. Um, you're not alone. There is a lot of great people here waiting to help you out. Uh, myself, uh, I co had a group on rev genius called rev league, where we do weekly competitions and we got a leaderboard.
[00:34:00] So when you put up meetings, you put your GIF up there and get high fives from everybody. Um, so know that you have that. So, uh, talk to me about rev league and how to join. Um, I'll send you the link, Colin. Um, another thing is that, uh, at rev up, we offer free sequence reviews to qualified people. Um, so it's a free half-hour session.
[00:34:18] We'll, we'll actually review what you're doing in your sequence and give you one to two tips. You can take home and boost your results, like right away. So, yeah.
[00:34:27] Collin Mitchell: [00:34:27] Awesome. Uh, if you are tuning into the podcast and you enjoy today's episode, please write us a review, share it with your friends and we're listening for your feedback.
[00:34:38] Thank you for tuning into this episode of sales hustle. Are you a sales professional? Looking to take your sales career to the next level. If the answer is yes, then I want you to go over to sales, cast.com, check us out. And if you feel that you are ready, set up a time to talk with me and my co-founder Chris, I'm your host, Colin Mitchell.
[00:35:02] And if you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a review and share the podcast with your friends.