Andrea Waltz joins Collin Mitchell in this episode of the Sales Hustle Podcast. Andrea and Collin talk about some Sales areas, and Andrea shares a little deeper about some interesting topics from her book she co-authored called “Go For No.”
Andrea Waltz is a Keynote Speaker, Co-Author for Go For No!, Founder of Courage Crafters, Inc. Courage Crafters, Inc. is the home of the "Go for No!" sales and mindset strategy. They teach "Go for No" via keynote speaking engagements at national sales meetings and conventions. We teach audiences how to achieve the results they want in their business and life by learning to think and feel differently about failure, rejection, and the word, no. As a result, "Go for No" has become a well-known methodology within many industries and is widely recognized as the only best program of its kind.
You can learn more about Andrea Waltz at https://www.goforno.com/. You can also get a copy of the book “Go For No!” on the website and Amazon.
If you’re listening to the Sales Hustle podcast, please subscribe, share, and we’re listening for your feedback. If you are a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a time with Collin and co-founder Chris.
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Episode 63 - Andrea Waltz
Welcome to the sales hustle. The only no BS podcast, where we bring you the real raw uncut experiences from sales change makers across various industries. The only place where you can get what you're looking for too. Uh, your sales game today's episode is brought to you by sales cast sales cast helps sales professionals transform the relationship building process and win their dream clients.
[00:00:30] I'm your host, Colin Mitchell. Oh, right. What is happening? Uh, sales hustlers. A welcome to another episode. I have a special guest for you today that has a book. No, um, co author of gopher. No speaker virtual trainer. Um, Andrea waltz and we are going to talk about some interesting topics. I came across some of her content on LinkedIn and knew that I had to get her on the show for you guys.
[00:00:55] Andrea, welcome to the show. Colin. Thank you. It is great to be with you. Yeah. Awesome. We had some technical difficulties, but we figured it out with a reboot and here we are ready to go. Here we are. Yes. That's what we do in sales. Yeah. So I always like to start these out the same way and you know, give us the short version of what your sales story.
[00:01:15] Yeah. Um, I, a bachelor of science and criminal justice, uh, decided not to pursue, I wanted to be a crime scene investigator before. That was a thing. Um, I ended up doing, uh, the job that I was doing while I was at college. I got promoted and was running a $3 million LensCrafters location at a young age. And my now husband and business partner.
[00:01:38] Uh, approached me and said, uh, maybe he made me an offer. He said, um, let's quit our jobs. And I was very successful, very young age, making a great paycheck. He's like, let's quit our jobs so we can become outside speakers and trainers. They actually paid us you, um, more that way. And, uh, let's rifle books. And he had this plan and I was just naive enough to think that.
[00:02:02] We can pull that off. So I was like, yes, let's do it. And that was 23 years ago. So I've been pretty much unemployable for 23 years. Um, one of the books that we wrote early on was called gopher notes based on, um, a situation that actually happened to my husband, a sales story. And, um, I've basically been talking about overcoming fear of rejection and failure in sales or all of this time.
[00:02:28] Wow. What a great topic though. It's a super fun topic and it's weird that someone would think that, but I love that topic of rejection because it just plagues everyone. And we're, we all have we're biologically wired to fear rejection. No one likes to hear the word no, in sales. And we're all looking for ways and strategies, I think, to think differently about it and to feel better about it and to find work arounds, you know, to go around it.
[00:02:56] So it's just a juicy topic and. It's a topic that if you're going to talk about sales, like rejection is going to come up. Oh yeah. And even the best people in sales are going to get more nos than yeses. Right? Absolutely. I mean, statistically, and if you're not getting more nos than yeses, you're probably not talking to enough people or you're not going after big enough.
[00:03:20] Prospects where, you know, you're, you, we sometimes say, you know, easy yeses leads to little successes, so you got to go after bigger, bigger fish. I love that. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. So why go for no, tell me more about that. Well, we created a sales and marketing challenge for ourselves because. I think that for some people it's a compelling title for others.
[00:03:41] It's very repelling just because, you know, salespeople are like, I don't want to hear and no. What are you talking about? So we have created this challenge fundamentally the whole premise of the book is that, uh, that. And it's a fable by the way. Um, so it's a, it's a short story. And it's about a guy who learns, um, from a future version of himself who is wildly successful.
[00:04:09] He learns the secret is not to avoid no, but to start hearing no more often kind of exactly what you said, like the best salespeople, they hear more nos than yeses because they're out there more, or they're talking to more people. Um, obviously. Hopefully qualifying people, but they're, they're just in more activity.
[00:04:26] So, uh, so yeah, that's kind of the foundation and then we just kind of explode the topic from there. Mm, okay. And so tell me about like, what are some of the successes of people that kind of like really get in with what you guys are teaching. Oh, my gosh. Well, so this is really cool because I was just on a clubhouse, um, which was my first time being on that platform.
[00:04:52] And I was actually hearing from people who had read the book years ago and how it impacted their lives and, um, a few different things. I mean, one of the big things is just learning how to detach. From both. Yes and no. And really focusing on your behaviors, which are the things that we know make you successful, um, not getting emotionally attached to whether that that person is going to say yes to you or no to you.
[00:05:17] And what a difference that can make in terms of, um, you know, in terms of your productivity, in terms of your ability to keep moving forward. Because we know that no has. The power to slow. A lot of people down, you know, you get a couple nos and you're just like, that's it I'm done for the day I'm done for the week.
[00:05:36] Uh, and that, I mean, just dealing with rejection, I think has just had a lot of probably good salespeople quit, you know, it just forces people out of the game. Yeah. And, and so, and the people that at least, I think stick around in sales for awhile, Obviously learn how to cope with rejection better. Right. Um, and, and, and I love what you said there, right.
[00:06:01] Is, is being detached from that. Right. Because I think that it's so important. So P it's so easy to get caught in. The trap of like trying to get to the next yes. Or trying to get the, the meeting or trying to get the demo or trying to get the deal in your pipeline. But if you focus more on just like having conversations with people, rather than like the end result, it's easier to detach from, from that, uh, uh, outcome.
[00:06:26] Do you agree with that? Absolutely. 100%. And I have to tell you the story, that kind of, it's kind of the foundational story of the whole book. Um, and it was a story that actually happened to my husband and it was how he. Communicate and go for no to me when we first met and he was kind of teaching me this idea and, um, he was working now, this is back in the eighties.
[00:06:45] So this goes back eons ago. Right? And he was selling suits for a living and the district manager, this guy by the name of Harold comes in to visit, he's doing a store visit. Right. So he's checking out the salespeople to make sure everybody is. You know, on their game? Well, my husband Richard is failing.
[00:07:00] Like his sales are abysmal. He feels like they're going to fire him. Well, the day that the district manager comes in to watch everybody, he got to help the first customer that walked in that day and the customer basically walks in and says, I want to buy an entire wardrobe of clothing. So my husband, Richard proceeds to sell him like a suit, a sport coat, you know, shoes, slacks, belt, pocket square, this $1,100 sale.
[00:07:24] Yeah. And back in that day, that was probably, we're like five grand today. Right? So it's a big sale for the day. And, um, he is, so my husband, Richard is like really excited because he's done this now. And Harold has seen him. So he he's thinking he looks fabulous and Harold then asks him a question. And he said, Richard, that was a great sale.
[00:07:43] But out of curiosity, what did that customer say? No to, and rich had to, he kind of like reviewed the sale in his mind and he said, Hmm, Harold the customer didn't say no to anything. The guy, every thing I showed him, he bought right. Everything I laid in front of him. He's like, yes, yes, yes. And then Harold asked him the really important question.
[00:08:01] He said, well then how did you know he was done? And that was the kind of life-changing question. And Harold told Richard, he said, you know, I watched your cell. You're not half bad. You're going to get better. But your fear of the word, no is going to kill you. I think if you could learn to get over that, you could be one of the great ones.
[00:08:20] And he, my husband says this all the time. He always says, you know, I, I didn't know if I had what it took to be successful, but I knew I had what it took to fail. I can, I can hear no more often. Like I could show more merchandise to customers. I could have them tell me no end up with more yeses and. So years later when we met and he told me that story, I call and I actually thought I was a superstar sales person, like customers loved me.
[00:08:48] And I was, I, you know, I was great. I had great rapport, but I also didn't like hearing the word. No, like I saw it as, Oh, I'm being one of those pushy aggressive sales used sales people. So one of our purposes for writing the book was we tell that story in the book, we like built it into the fable and our whole goal is to help people understand that, you know, it's not about being aggressive.
[00:09:10] No is a perfectly acceptable answer, but most people, they sell like rich sold. They end the sale early. They don't hear no, they avoid it. Um, and so that's the whole point of, for no, is to go for now. Yeah. Yeah. So it's asking more people bigger asks what else? Bigger asks. Um, it is, uh, well, here's a really fun way to implement it, which is to set a quota for the number of nos you're going to get.
[00:09:38] So instead of, so instead of I was just setting a typical yes. Goal, like what we all have been taught and trained to do, right. So it's like four appointments, which we did in our business. Um, You know, when we launched our business, I had to cold call. The fortune 500 fortune, 1000 retailers that we wanted to work with, that was kind of our, that was our niche back then.
[00:10:01] So I'm like calling, trying to get the vice president of human resources or training and I'm sending them a package and I'm following up. And our goal was to get four yeses a month. Then we said, well, what if we have a hundred companies turn us down each month? Like what. What happened to our business because we had just written goal for net.
[00:10:19] We're like, we should put this into practice. Yeah. So we started doing it and yeah, I was the salesperson marketer, which is the deliverer of the content. And we had more business than we knew what to do with when we just started focusing on, let's just get through these nos and don't let the yeses slow us down.
[00:10:37] Like we would get four yeses and being entree new, especially new entrepreneurs, um, setting our own quota. We're like, we'd get the yeses we wanted and then we were done. That's it. Right. Shut, shut down your productivity, like kick back, take, take off the rest of the month. So it's a really fun way to implement it.
[00:10:58] And there's, you know, you asked me for some examples, um, that detachment is one that you get when you, when you set those no goals. But the other thing I think is it's almost a. And we haven't, we haven't really like dug into the technology piece of this, but you could totally game-ify this, if you really wanted, like celebrate the nose, make it fun.
[00:11:19] Right. Exactly. That's, that's totally it. So, you know, like seems backwards because we're just like taught, like to get the yeses, to get the next yes. To get the, you know, get them to the next stage, get the demo, get the meeting. Like that's what everybody's so focused on. And typically you miss so much. And do so many things wrong because you're so focused on that outcome.
[00:11:40] Right. Um, and that's the way that a lot of people are taught and they just don't know any better. But to actually, like, I love that like setting a goal of nos, right? So like, okay, no, we're not looking for four yeses. We're looking for a hundred nos. And along the way of your journey of going for the nose, probably going to get some yeses.
[00:11:57] Right. Um, but if you get those four yeses, don't stop because you still haven't hit your, your hundred nose. Keep going. Exactly. Exactly. It keeps you, it keeps you in action. And so one of the questions I get though, a lot of times is like, okay, but what if you're getting nothing but nos? And that's when you do have to back up and say, all right, we'll be talking to like, are we going after the right people?
[00:12:21] Are we going after qualified prospects? And you can you use, go for no to, uh, just qualify or disqualify? Right. You can just, just easy, quick, quick disqualification. But then when you're in that process where you have that qualified prospect, then it comes down to okay. Go for no with them. And then if they tell you, no, we're not really interested.
[00:12:41] We don't really want it. We have another supplier, blah, blah, blah, all the objections. It's okay. Let's put them on a drip campaign. Let's follow up. That's go for no as well. Like, um, you know, that the situation is going to change with these people. Like, you know that in two years, if you're still around selling your service, Or product, um, that they're probably gonna have, they could have a need, the supplier might screw up all kinds of things could change.
[00:13:09] Right. And so it is about like the beginning of a relationship. Um, it's not, it's a numbers game thing. I understand that a lot of people get that, but also it can, you can, it's the beginning of her building a relationship basically. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and kind of what you described there is like the there's two different types of notes, right?
[00:13:30] There's like, no, for a good reason, like in that kind of looks like no, we're in a contract for five years. Like, sorry. There's nothing we can do. Right. Or the more common Noah's is like, no, we're not interested. Right. Well that's no, but not necessarily with a good reason. Right. There's there's still some opportunity there.
[00:13:48] Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, there's so many nuances to getting no, there's so many reasons behind a no, some of them valid, like you said, some of them not valid. I mean the most valid one is just when you're trying to figure out, Hey, is this a good. Prospect. So if you're selling home security systems and you're calling people who live in apartments who have no control over their security system whatsoever, then you're going to waste a lot of time talking to unqualified prospects, trying to sell them on a security system for right.
[00:14:21] So you then, um, so you might be getting a lot of nos and now you have to say, okay, Wait a minute who buys security systems? Homeowners. Okay. Let's, let's go talk to people who are qualified, who can actually potentially give us a yes. And then we'll deal with those kinds of objections, because at least we're getting closer to the target prospect.
[00:14:41] Mm. Okay. And, and so what about, and I get this idea of really just like making it fun, you know, being detached from that outcome, really helping them, you know, kind of shift the mindset, right? Yeah. Um, now how about. Um, are you familiar? Are you familiar with like the Chris boss method and things like that?
[00:15:00] Yes. Yes. Okay. So I love like, you know, personally, I mean, that we use right. Is rather than going for a yes. Like getting the prospect to say no for a positive outcome. Right. So that kind of looks like rather than saying, Hey, are, you know, are you, are you open two 15 minutes? Like, are you opposed to learning more about X, Y, and Z over a 15 minute call and no meaning yes.
[00:15:21] That you're gonna get the meeting. So, um, Talk to me a little bit about that and your thoughts, uh, around those sort of like going for no for a positive outcome within your sales cycle or process. Right. Well, I mean, ultimately I think the, kind of the underlying philosophy, um, is don't be afraid of no, right.
[00:15:42] It's it's always, um, especially in negotiations, like he always says, if you want the yes to desperately, then you're just going to give up. Things, you're just going to give up, you're going to give up, um, whatever, because you're so entrenched with that. Yes. You've gotta be okay with getting that. No, and also I think it takes, it really takes the pressure off when, when that other person knows that you're not concerned.
[00:16:07] And with the know that all of the pressure is off of them. They become very attracted to then get, I think, saying yes or potentially giving you what you want because they no longer feel that, that you are pressuring them. Um, and that really is playing the long game. And I think that's what I love about Chris boss's philosophy is, you know, it's, they're kind of thinking at it.
[00:16:31] They're thinking about things almost like playing the long game and especially in B to B sales. I think people need to play the long game. Oh, absolutely. And, and, and so it, it, it allows the PR the they're so used to you wanting them to say yes, kind of reframing in that way is so unusual that it's easier to get to know which is a positive outcome, you know, in, in when you frame it that way.
[00:16:58] Um, so yeah, I, I love using that actually going for the no to get. But yes, I guess in this case, exactly. And the philosophies are very, like, they're very, very synergistic. In fact, I have so many people who reference, I'm sure her response is like, well, what the hell's go for knowing what are these people talking about?
[00:17:18] Right. Um, but I have heard it. I've watched so many of his interviews. I think he's just brilliant, um, overall, but I love that he brings kind of that know aspect into it and that's really like. Kind of a fun thing about why I love teaching. This is, it really is a philosophy. It is this timeless principle.
[00:17:36] And I think the timeless principle is, and what people really need to understand is you don't get in life. Yes is without hearing knows, like they are packaged deal, um, failure, success package deal. We talk a lot about failure and success in our book. Go for no as well. And to try to be a sales person or to try to live life like, Oh, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna very carefully try to be successful and try to avoid failure at all.
[00:18:03] Costs or avoid. No at all, costs is a recipe for mediocrity. That is where you will start playing everything really safe. And you start playing not to win. You just start playing not to lose. And so that's kind of the timeless principle part, but then there's also the strategy part of, okay. How do you actually put this into practice?
[00:18:23] Wow. I love that sales hustlers. Are you playing? To win or are you playing to not lose something to definitely, uh, consider there? Um, and, and this, I can't help, but like kind of relate this. I have three young kids thinking like they are not scared of hearing. No, they will ask you the same thing over and over and over again.
[00:18:44] No matter how many times you tell them. No, that's so funny that you would bring that up because. We created a business card out of a little book that a really good friend of ours sent us his daughter Hadley when she was six years old, created this little book and she illustrated it and everything. And, um, it was called one day.
[00:19:03] I asked my daddy for a cookie by Hadley and that was like, he opened it up and it's one day ask my daddy for a cookie, said, no, So I asked for a cookie said, no, sorry. I asked for cookies said no. And then it said, and then it goes, I'm sorry. I asked for a cookie. He said, yes, the end. Yeah. It's really funny.
[00:19:18] I was dealing with this last night with my son, like he wanted ice cream. Right. And I was like, Oh, we're not going to have ice cream tonight. You know? And he asked me. A bunch of times over and over and over and over and over again. And there is a lot of times where I ended up giving in because I'm like, this is so not even worth like the frustration, you know, like, um, I try to teach him like, if it definitely like being okay with no, like, no one's going to happen.
[00:19:44] Sometimes you got to deal with that. Um, and we try to like work through that, but you know, there is some times where, especially I have three young kids where you're like, This is a battle that's not worth fighting. I'm going to say yes. Right, right, right. And, um, yeah, so kids are like the perfect. I love that example.
[00:20:01] The kids are the perfect people. They'll remember your persistence and tenacity from, because they don't give up easily, especially when they want something. Um, they're very, and they're very creative. Um, you know, they, they do say like, Oh, okay. So he said, no, but yeah. They're paying attention to nuance there.
[00:20:20] Like he said, no, but I don't know. It wasn't a hard, no, it was kind of dad. One of dad's really soft. No, it was, I can work with this. Like I can work with this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My youngest one is the best one at it. Cause she's like you tell her no. And then she just asks so politely and says, please, and it's like really hard to say no to her sometimes.
[00:20:42] Um, where my son, he just kinda like loses it and freaks out and like asks me the same thing over and over and gets irritated or it's, there's definitely a different approach where she definitely gets more yeses because she's like, She's younger and she's really sweet. And she says, Oh daddy, please. Like, she's really nice about it.
[00:20:59] And it's so much easier to say yes to her. So funny. Yeah. So yeah, different approaches. She's probably too young to maybe have, have studied, but your son to learn like, okay, that's. That's what not to do, because now you're just pissing him off and he's got to shut you down. Like he's going to now. Yeah.
[00:21:18] Maybe she has. I don't know. So, so yeah, I think that's an interesting topic to kind of tie it back to like sales or B2B sales. Right. So if you're getting a lot of nos, like kind of playing with your words, how are you framing them? Like, what is your structure of your talk track to like structure it, to get more.
[00:21:36] I mean, the goal is to get yeses, but it's also to like have fun and not be so not really tie like your value or your self worth to like getting rejection and getting no. I mean, cause that's, that's what you signed up for. If you're in sales, that's part of the job and you got to learn how to deal with it and not like really let it affect you in a negative way to where it's really.
[00:22:00] You know, limiting your capacity or what you can do. Yeah, exactly. And that kind of goes back to the detachment we talked about earlier, which is if you, you know, we have a tendency, uh, salespeople are so competitive and, and they love to win. And so, but if you, if everything is like, Oh, I won and I won the sale, then when you lose, when you get that rejection, then that becomes all about you too.
[00:22:25] And so that's why that detachment is so important, which is. Um, and I always say I learned this from the four agreements, which is an amazing self-development personal development book that I have read and studied for all, all these years, because it goes hand in hand with go for no. And one of the four agreements is don't take things personally and.
[00:22:45] If you're thinking, if you're taking that note personally, you have to understand it's not about you, even when it's about you. It really is about that other person. And so we can't look for validation in the yes. And you can't have one, if you, you know, you can't say, Oh, I get to celebrate my success with the yes, but the no's have nothing to do with me.
[00:23:05] You really just need to detach from all of it and say, I'm going to do the best I can. And this is why our subtitle is important, Collin, because. You said, obviously we want yes. And we do because the subtitle of our book is yes. Is the destination. No is how you get there. So let me just be clear for anybody who's, you know, are not just like trying to get no for no sake.
[00:23:25] Um, right. Yes. Is the destination, but we just focus on the success behaviors, like the things that, you know, get you the best results and be creative and have fun with it. And then just let the chips fall where they may really. Right. Right. So let's see. I wanna, I want to kind of talk about like, why are, why are more leaders not teaching this?
[00:23:55] That's a really good question. Um, I don't know. I, I think it is kind of a touchy, feely subject. I always say that rejection's the elephant in the room. And I know there was a lot of elephants in a lot of rooms, right. When it comes to business and sales, but here's the thing. Like you, you sit in a sales meeting and.
[00:24:17] P and the questions asked, like we are down 15%, what's going on? Why aren't our numbers? Good, blah, blah, blah. No, one's raising their hand going. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm just terrified of rejection. That's just not happening. Right. Nobody's admitting that. And so I think for sales leadership, and, and just for coaching, it's like, it just doesn't get talked about.
[00:24:40] It's always kind of, well, we're just not. We're just not doing the right things. We've got a scripting problem. We've got this or that. And I think this is just one of those touchy feely subjects where you've got to say, okay, maybe we actually need training around helping people not just get over their fear of rejection, but like, how do we embrace it?
[00:25:03] How do we celebrate it? And you said, celebrate the note. It is one of the core tenants of go for no, and the good sales managers out there. They do get it. And they do talk about it. Mm, I'm just envisioning like a sales floor and just hitting the gong. When you get a no, right. That would be something, right?
[00:25:22] Yeah. Cause normally you ring the bell when you get the yes. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yes. And then, and then you get a yes. And it's like, ah, uh, this is such an interesting topic and it's really why I wanted to have you on here. So just any final thoughts, where can people find the book? Where can they find out anything else?
[00:25:41] New exciting fun that you're working on all that good stuff. We'll include those links in the show notes for everybody, I would encourage people to come to go for no.com and take the note quotient quiz, because we've got a fun 20 question kind of not scientific quiz, but it does. It will give you a number of like where you are in your thought process in relationship to failure and rejection, um, and hearing the word.
[00:26:07] No. So that's kind of a fun thing at gopher, no.com and, and the book's available on Amazon. And if he's literally, if you type in, go for no, you will find me. I least I've been around long enough to be very well-branded. So at least I have that going. Um, and I would just say final words. Um, practice it, like create a no awareness of how many nos am I getting or, or have I not heard no for a long time and just start slow, maybe like one a day, you know, just see what happens and, and, and, and play around with it.
[00:26:39] Yeah. Yeah. And if you're not getting enough nos, then maybe you're not asking enough of the right questions or with the right people, or often enough. Exactly. That that is the key you've got to execute. Well, Andrea, thanks so much for coming on here. Really appreciate it. If you're listening to the podcast and you enjoy today's episode, please write us a review, share with your friends and we're listening for your feedback.
[00:27:05] Thank you for tuning in to this episode of sales hustle. Are you a sales professional? Looking to take your sales career to the next level. If the answer is yes, then I want you to go over to sales, cast.com, check us out. And if you feel that you are ready, set up a time to talk with me and my co-founder Chris, I'm your host column Mitchell.
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