Darrell Amy joins Collin Mitchell in this episode of the Sales Hustle Podcast. Darrell shares his sales story that began 28 years ago and is still very passionate about it today. Darrell shares a few nuggets in the area about revenue growth that will help sales folks out there.
Darrell Amy is the Growth Strategist, Author, and Speaker at Revenue Growth Engine. They help businesses grow revenue so they can create jobs and give more to their communities. He is also a C-Suite Radio Host of the Revenue Growth Podcast and a Co-Host of the Selling From The Heart Podcast.
Apart from hosting, Darrell is also the Visionary at Convergo and a Forbes Business Council member.
You can get a copy of Darrell Amy’s book called the Revenue Growth Engine to learn more about the concept of value. You can also send a text to “21000” to get access to the Growth Revenue tools.
If you’re listening to the Sales Hustle podcast, please subscribe, share, and we’re listening for your feedback. If you are a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a time with Collin and co-founder Chris.
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Sales Hustle - Episode 54 - Darrell Amy
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[00:00:24] Sales professionals transform the relationship building process and win their dream clients. I'm your host, Colin Mitchell. All right. Welcome sales hustlers. To another episode, I have a long-term friend here, Daryl Amy, and it's been a little while since we've talked. So I'm excited to have him on the show.
[00:00:45] Darryl, Amy is the author of the revenue growth engine and the co-host of, uh, one of my personal favorite podcasts, the selling from the heart podcast with Larry Levine, uh, Darrell, welcome to sales household. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me in Collin. This is going to be fun. Yeah. Awesome.
[00:01:04] Awesome. So, um, I like to start these out, you know, just kind of give us the short cliff notes versions of like how you got into sales, how you became so passionate about sales, and then we're going to talk about some fun topics from there. Yeah. I'm a sales junkie. Um, I'm a, I like to say I'm a recovering sales rep.
[00:01:20] I'm down to therapy twice a month. It's going pretty well. I actually started in sales 28 years ago. Uh, graduated from college with a marketing degree in my hip pocket. Wanted to make some money. And got hired to sell office equipment, bought the van and demonstrated copiers door to door in a hardcore competitive, uh, industry.
[00:01:44] Uh, but I was in sales sales management, ran a branch, ended up, uh, launching a sales development company in 2004, teaching, um, sales professionals, how to have high value conversations. Um, and how to, uh, talk the language of business so they could get more C level appointments and drive more value. Uh, at the same time, I ended up launching a marketing company, which is where we met years ago.
[00:02:10] And so I've had one foot in the sales world, one foot firmly in the, uh, rapidly evolving marketing world. And that kind of brings us to where we are today. I'm just a growth junkie and I love sales and I love marketing and I love helping great leaders grow. Alright, so let's, uh, let's unpack some of that.
[00:02:32] So, um, tell me when you first started in sales, what are some things you learned early on that still stick with you today? Well, first of all, I was, I was terrible because it was, it was bad. I was 21 Canadian. I married a Southern girl and, uh, this, uh, this baby face you see right now is a 50 year old. So you can imagine going into people's offices at 21.
[00:03:03] With a Canadian accent in the mid South, trying to sell a brand of product that nobody in the market knew about. So I learned, I mean, it was university of hard knocks all the way around. Um, what I learned though real quickly and, and this has stuck with me through my whole career is if you want to get attention with top level decision makers and that's, you know, it was, it was drilled into our head, right.
[00:03:29] Go. Go for, um, the money, the authority, the need go to the top level. What I discovered is most of those people didn't care about the products I was selling. They had, I mean, not remotely, but what, what I did learn yeah. Is if I could understand their goals, their top level goals, their top level challenges and drive conversation, and somehow connect my offering to that.
[00:03:54] That I could win. And that was, um, you know, I didn't have the best product. I didn't have the best service. I didn't have a recognized brand, but what I had was an opportunity and that forced me to be able to go in and have those value driven conversations. That, um, a lot of my competitors weren't cause they were leaning on their product, leaning on their brand.
[00:04:16] And um, so that stuck with me through the years and it really, I think formed the core of my, my sales philosophy. Um, all right. I love so much of that. And now I know why you and Larry are so, uh, aligned. Um, Larry, uh, and I know Larry has been on your podcast. Larry is the co-host of the selling from the heart podcast.
[00:04:37] I met him 15 years ago doing sales training, and he, he was a early adopter of the value, uh, strategies and mindset, and, and he ran with it and he made a ton of money. He did really well, and we stayed. Uh, friends through all of that. Yeah. All right. So there's a couple of things that you said that stuck out to me, right?
[00:04:59] So if you want to have meaningful conversations with high level executives, you need to understand, and, you know, let's give sellers the benefit of the doubt. I think there's some out there that do understand this, but there's still a lot that don't, um, the, these people don't care about your product. They don't care about your awards.
[00:05:22] They don't care about the brand. They don't care about any of that. So tell them, what do they care about Darrell? Well, they care about themselves and, you know, so we just sum it up and we kind of laugh about that, but it really is true. I was just one of the things I get involved with now. I, I wrote a book, um, this past year revenue growth engine.
[00:05:42] It's a model to align sales and marketing to drive growth. So one of the things I'm involved in now, one of the things I sell is doing growth strategies for companies. And right before this conversation, I was doing a growth strategy with a company that sells services into the retail. Uh, into retail stores, like large retail stores, like Lowe's and dollar general and stuff like that.
[00:06:05] And, um, so, and they have, uh, their core decision makers are the, the, the head over, um, it. Facilities management, um, in, uh, loss prevention. So anyhow, um, I said, tell me, what are the outcomes that these people want? My core philosophy is that buyers don't buy products. They buy outcomes. They buy the outcomes, those products deliver.
[00:06:28] And years ago, Theodore Levitt, father of modern marketing. Walked into his Harvard business school class. You may know this story and he would do this every year at the beginning of marketing class. And this applies to salespeople as well. And he would hold up a drill bit from an electric drill. And I know I've got, got one right here.
[00:06:45] It's always in my drawer. This reminds me of this. Is that. This is a drill bit right here. It's a eight thing. And those for listening, he really does have a Juliet in his hands. I need to know is when I'm not, um, helping companies grow and coaching salespeople, I'm in my shop. I like building things. So this is perfect illustration for me.
[00:07:06] Thank you for indulging me. But Theodore Levitt would walk into his class and go nobody in the history of Lowe's home Depot. Insert hardware store of choice here has ever purchased a drill bit. What did they buy? They bought the hole, but Seth Goden would take it a step further and say they weren't actually buying the hole.
[00:07:25] They wanted the ability to hang the plaque on the wall so that they would look good to their peers when they came in the office. And then, uh, my, one of my other favorite authors Donald Miller would say, well, actually, we're all cave men at heart. We're scared of getting eaten by a tiger. And we know that if we're in community, we'll be safe.
[00:07:43] So whether you bought, went to the store to buy a hole in the wall, whether you went to buy. A, uh, you know, recognition from your friends or whether you went to make sure you didn't die and get eaten by a tiger. Neither. Any one of those people, none of them went to buy a drill bit. They went to buy the outcome of the drill bit.
[00:08:02] And this is where, you know, when I asked, you know, well, what, what does a loss prevention person want, uh, while they want the job done on time and under budget. Okay. Well, by the way, Isn't that what every competitor probably says to that loss prevention person we're on time and under budget. It's just noise.
[00:08:21] Why do they want it on time and under budget? They want it on time and under budget because they know that if that thing isn't fixed, someone's going to steal something from the store. And if they steal something from the store, then it's going to look bad and they might ultimately lose their job. Right.
[00:08:40] And they might live under a bridge. So what's the outcome they're looking for. Not to a job or living under a bridge. Yeah. And this is for on-time or under budget. They're not looking for, and you insert your product here and I guarantee you the outcome that you're actually, your buyers are actually buying is about two levels deep into the question.
[00:08:59] Why did they do that? Why do they care about that? And keep peeling it back? I used to get called on. I used to do a lot of case studies. Um, Back in the, in the days when I had a marketing agency, I had a team of people doing most of that, really smart people doing things. But I like to do the case studies because what I would do is, uh, when we do success story, I would call up the sales person and I'd say, Hey, I'm about to interview your, you know, your success story here.
[00:09:25] Tell me about it. And we get down to the, you know, benefits. Tell me the backstory. Why did they really buy it? Guess what salespeople would say nine times out of 10. They liked me. They liked me. I'm good looking. And we saved them money. Right. I'm like, okay, well, other than the ROI, is there any other reason they bought and, um, and it's sales, right?
[00:09:48] No, no, it was mainly because we saved the money. So I'd call the client, do the interview and they would start to say, why did you, why did you buy this? What benefits is the marketing term for that? Are you getting from this? And they start rattling things off. You know, we like this, we like this. It's helping us here.
[00:10:02] It's helping us here. And then usually on these interviews, at least half the time, I'd have to say by the way, are y'all tracking the ROI because I'm fishing for like the money part, right? Oh, no, not really, but we like this, this, this, and this, and I'd always call the rep back and go, Hey dude. Hey, do you want to know why your client actually purchased this?
[00:10:24] And B, do you want to know how much money you left on the table? Because you discounted the value. They actually would have paid more than they were currently spending and you charge them 20% less and thought you did a great job. And this is where, you know, when we identify the outcomes, not only are we able to get their attention.
[00:10:45] Um, we're also able to build value and value add equals gross profit. And I don't know about you, but I have a goal. And my goal is I want to make more money in 2021 than I made in 2020 that I made in 2019. And how do you make more money? I gotta sell more at a higher profit margin. How do you do that value?
[00:11:06] And this is where, um, you know, this is where we got to look in terms of. Profit revenue, close rate, all of that. When you get to the middle, middle and bottom of the funnel. All right. There's so many great things in that get fired up. I mean, I mean, Um, I don't even know where to start. Um, all right. So the one thing that you, you, you mentioned that really just kind of is just sticking with me that I want to dig into that a little bit.
[00:11:36] Yeah. Um, is, is the case studies? I think that's so interesting that, um, You and, and, and I could see this, you know, sales rep thinks this is why they bought, we saved them money. Or, and it ties back to the sales rep, not really understanding a couple of things, their own value as a sales rep. And to what you mentioned early on is them selling based on leaning into the product or the savings.
[00:12:07] And when you're selling on those, then yeah, you're leaving a ton of money on the table. If you don't know how to connect with these type of people really understand what are they buying? And, you know, as you elegantly described, they're not buying a drill bit. Right? You got to dig deeper. You've got to be curious, you've got to ask more questions and then why, and then follow up and validate.
[00:12:31] And that's where you really get to like, okay, how can we help these people? Do they value that we can help them? How can we help them? What's it worth to them? And people are so quick to discount or give concessions to get the deal because they feel so much pressure to just get a, just pack a deal in their pipeline that doesn't even belong there.
[00:12:52] That this is what happens. Right. So, yeah, so. How let's let's just to say, let's talk to the seller, you know, that maybe is new and let's assume they just don't know a lot of these things. Right? Where do they start? How do they get more in tune with what, what problem am I actually solving? What does that actually mean for these people?
[00:13:12] And why do they care about it? The best place to start is to talk to your current clients. It's the best place to start. And, um, you know, it was, it reminds me of years ago, um, years ago I wanted to do some, this was with my marketing hat on, but I ended up. With this story, creating unbelievable sales opportunities out of it.
[00:13:33] So I wanted to write, I wanted to do some vertical market research. You know, we all got every industry creates vertical market research, and most of it's complete garbage. It's basically, how can we get some buzzwords for the vertical market and shoehorn our product in there, but it doesn't really teach you anything.
[00:13:50] So what I did is I said, I really want to understand this. I mean, by the way, curiosity, Is one of the most overlooked and powerful skills. Every sales, professional high-performance sales professional should have, um, curiosity. So I went in, um, to, and I went into my, I actually start with my friends. These weren't even clients, and I wanted to do vertical market research, um, in all these different research.
[00:14:16] So at the time I was buying a house and it just so happened. The regional manager for Wells Fargo mortgage, uh, was in my neighborhood. And so I called him up one day. I said, can I buy you lunch? You got to sure. You can buy me lunch. So I got to lunch. I said, I want to know what happens. Tell me about your business.
[00:14:33] What are your challenges? What happens from the time I submit a mortgage application until you fund this thing, where are the problems in your business? I would just start listening. What are the trends in your industry? And I showed up at lunch with a Canary yellow, legal pad. It's all you need. And a pen and two ears.
[00:14:49] And I started listening and by the end of the lunch, I'd taken like three pages worth of notes. And, um, he was thanking me. He was like, this is really cathartic for me to express all this. And, uh, and I said, man, these look like problems. And we had like four or five big problems and he goes, man, if someone could solve these problems for us, That would be incredible.
[00:15:12] Well, guess what? It was so funny. Cause I did this over and over. I did it in a legal industry. I did it in the healthcare. I did it in all these different industries and at the end of it, I was actually handing leads off to my friends who could solve their problems. But what I learned from that was two incredibly valuable things.
[00:15:29] I learned what the problems were, what their goals were, right. What the outcomes they wanted. And I also learned them in their language and every industry has a, a language. They got their own way of talking about things around the NACA Cuellar. How's that for word of the day. Um, they've got their own lingo.
[00:15:48] And so. I say, talk to your current clients and ask them not just about your product. This is where most reps miss it. Ask about their business. Hey, has he looked forward into 2021? I'm curious, you know, in your industry, what are some of the biggest challenges you're facing? What are you looking to achieve?
[00:16:07] Where do you see things going? You know, ask the big picture questions and you go, well, Daryl, why would I do that? I sell widgets. I don't, you know, I'm not a business consultant. Here's why. Yeah. Budget clients have limited amount of resources, limited amount of money and limited amount of attention. I would say, especially if you're in B2B, but this applies to can B to C as well.
[00:16:31] If you cannot connect your product or service to one of their top three goals or challenges, you will get relegated to the back burner. The, the list of things, nice ideas that we'll get around to someday. And if you look at the biggest competitor in every industry, it's not your competitor, the biggest competitor is the status quo.
[00:16:54] Oh yeah. And, and why it's because every company is going to direct their limited resources, time and money to their priorities. So. Yeah, we have got to listen and understand their priorities and find a way if we can't hang our recommendation, you know, literally on one or more of those goals or challenges that a company has top-level goals or challenges.
[00:17:19] If we can't hang a recommendation on that, you know what, it's going to be. One of those deals where you go back to the office, go, I don't get it. It was an incredible idea. It made so much sense you're right, but it wasn't hooked to one of their top level goals. So guess what? No deal, uh, and uh, nice ideas don't pay the bills.
[00:17:37] So this is really, really critical. And the other, the other thing about this call, and this goes back to what we were talking about, uh, earlier is. Once you understand that now you have the language and the talking points to go in and drive conversation with top level decision makers in a way your competitors aren't doing.
[00:18:00] Hm. So that research is so, so valuable, um, to understand their language, to really understand what they care about, um, and to try to figure out and, and here's the thing, right? So yeah, you can ask these high level questions, right. And like you've mentioned some reps and like, why would I ask that has nothing to do with what I saw you're right.
[00:18:19] It has nothing to do and what you sell, but you need to be. Creative enough to tie what you do into helping solve one of those problems. Right. You know, I guess. Maybe, maybe I'm wrong. And you could tell me, and maybe there's some additional ones, but I would say majority of these problems are typically anchored to a couple of things, right.
[00:18:38] Either time or money. Right. And, and, and so whatever these problems are somehow tying back to saving them time, saving them money or driving revenue. Um, w what are some others that these problems typically are tied to? Uh, now you're getting to one of my all time favorite topics. I was hoping we'd go there.
[00:18:58] My favorite topic is cake birthday cake. Um, and I think that there are two types of people in the world. Cake people and icing people. There are some people that think cake is the ball game. And other people like me that are correct, that believed the real purpose for cake is to be a delivery vehicle for icing.
[00:19:20] And so here's where I'm going with this may be like, what in the world are you talking about in sales, especially in the B2B space. We're like ROI, ROI, ROI, what's the ROI. Um, and. Yes, there is fine. There's time and money. Absolutely. However, how many times have you been, and I've worked along the way in several, uh, large fortune 1,500 companies, and I've sold to those organizations as well.
[00:19:53] And I remember being in the boardroom of a large tech company. Um, I won't say it starts with H and Inns and P and M. I was in the board room. This was years and years ago. Uh, it was none of those people are there now. And I was in the boardroom and it was a decision. It was a six-figure decision and everyone around the table goes, do you think this is a good idea?
[00:20:17] It was a multi six figure decision and everyone looked around the table. Yeah. And at the end of the meeting on the way out the door, The, the person that was responsible for the paperwork said, Hey, by the way, um, can you put together an ROI for us? And that was my moment where I went, ding, ding, ding, meaning they weren't, they, the benefits that they saw were way bigger than whatever we would put on paper for ROI, they were buying the icing.
[00:20:49] And the cake was just the delivery vehicle to get the icing. So here's where I'm going with this. You can go Darryl, where, where are you going to, and I usually teach this in sales training over an hour. So we're compressing this into five minutes, but I want to, I want you to think about all the benefits of your product.
[00:21:05] So financial. Yes. But also, what about risk? How much does it help them reduce their risk? For example, um, I used to sell document management software, which is software, where you would scan in documents and create a archive and you streamline the workflow of your business. Um, and it was expensive and, and, uh, just on a pure ROI, we would say, how many filing cabinets do you have?
[00:21:32] And, and we can add that up and we can get rid of those. And you know, how much I sold using that methodology zero. Right. However, what I begin to understand is what I wasn't selling, what I was really selling in a lot of companies was risk reduction. So I could add up the cost of the filing cabinets and create an ROI on paper.
[00:21:56] But what they were really concerned about is what if the building burns down and we lose all of our key customer information, what would that cost? So let's say my software costs a hundred thousand dollars in contrast to the filing cabinets. That's a lot of filing cabinets to justify that and create a.
[00:22:18] ROI, and it's not worth the hassle, but what would it cost that business if they were out of business for two weeks and you know, what two weeks worth of revenue worth to that business or my file or certain files went missing or yeah. Or then you layer on that another layer of icing, right? I like icing.
[00:22:35] So two weeks out of business, that's $10 million, um, lawsuits, $50 million, uh, add in, you know, all this icing on top of value. Can I quantify it? No, but is it real? Yes. Could I help them reduce the risk that that would happen? So for a hundred thousand dollars, one rep goes in and says, I can replace your filing cabinets and save you 5%.
[00:23:02] $5,000 Lottie fricking dog, right? The other rep goes in for a hundred thousand dollars. I can reduce the risk that your company might lose $50 million plus lose the faith of your largest clients and possibly go bankrupt, same value proposition. One rep sold the cake, the other rep sold the icing. And so, you know, and, and add into that, hooking that recommendation into one of their top level business goals.
[00:23:31] You know, which maybe you discovered that they want to move into five other States and run, you know, a home office virtually or, I mean, you just think of the scenarios. And so once again, one rep product focused, we can replace your filing cabinets. Other rep. Value focused says, what risk can I mitigate?
[00:23:51] How can I help you achieve your goals? How can I help you improve your customer satisfaction? How can I help you streamline your cashflow? I mean, you go down the there's all these different value points and those things come out in conversation. If you'll be curious and listen. And, uh, I know from the university of hard knocks that the cake method rarely works and doesn't make a lot of money.
[00:24:15] And that the icing method works extremely well in generates obscene, profit margins, and happy clients. All right. I'm dying to ask you this question. Um, you you've, you've, you've worked with a lot of people in, in, in various industries in sales coaching, and I'm just wanting to know how many people that you've come across are selling cake versus selling the IC.
[00:24:46] It's got a nice, got it. Uh, I not have not have, I don't have stats, but Pereno said is 80 20 and I bet it's, I bet it's 95 five because the reality is, and I see this in sales. I see it in marketing because I get to work with marketing. I see it in business owners. I mean, everybody, we in, it's just a natural tendency.
[00:25:07] We get focused on. Our perspective, right? Cause we, we got to know our product. We got to know it's got all these features. We get obsessed about our competitors. We get obsessed about, you know, the wards and all this stuff. And, um, that's all great. But once again, nobody bought the drill bit. You could have the best drill, a real bit on the planet and nobody cares.
[00:25:30] Nobody cares. I used to tell this story. I mentioned I'm in the construction, uh, of that's how I grew up and that's what I do for fun. Um, I like building things and, um, I always imagine if I were a deck manufacturer or a deck I sold decks, like in the back of house patio, all that stuff. Um, one, one rep would come and match.
[00:25:50] And if I came in over to your house, calling. And you had a nice backyard, but it had this tiny little concrete patio. I'm the deck salesman I worked for decks unlimited. I'm the account executive I'm in your backyard. We sit down, we pop open a drink. We're sitting on your tiny little concrete patio and, uh, and I'm here to sell you a deck.
[00:26:09] And imagine if I did this, I said, Colin, I'm so excited about this new deck. Your backyard is gorgeous. Um, and let, as we start, let me show you this. Colin. This is the DeWalt XR two cordless drill. The XR two cordless drill has 457 foot pounds of torque at 3,700 RPI and the best battery life of any electric drill in the business.
[00:26:36] And still wonder the drill technology association awarded this the most outstanding electric drill of the year. And it is incredible value in terms of its life cycle and duty cycle and cost per pole or whatever. What would you be thinking? I'd say Daryl, I don't give a shit about your drill. Why are you talking to me about your tools?
[00:27:00] I want to talk about my deck now. Insert your product as a tool. To achieve an outcome. And now think about that conversation you're having with your client and are you, you know, what I should be doing is going into your backyard and going, come on even further, right? You're not even selling me the deck you're selling me.
[00:27:17] You're selling me. What is that family time to do fry after imagine, yeah. Coming out here with your family, your kids, where's the house barbecuing on your deck, right? The experience the, the, the outcome. And this is, this is what you got. You know, I don't, you're listening if you're listening in it. I don't know what you sell, but insert, you know, your product into the electric drill.
[00:27:46] Because even if you sell a service people, aren't buying the service, they're buying the outcome that service delivers. I don't go to the gas station to buy gasoline. I go there for the ability to drive another 500 miles. Uh, you know, it, you can think about this for any product and you need to understand the outcomes.
[00:28:05] And when you do, you're going to get more attention and make more profit and tape. Yeah. And this takes work sales, hustlers. This is not going to come natural. Like you got to go out there and do some homework and maybe even do some of these interviews with people and take them out to lunch, uh, or do them over zoom and send them lunch, whatever.
[00:28:26] I mean, you know, uh, You got to figure this out. You gotta be able to talk their language and be able to sell that outcome so that value and not just sell your features and benefits like every other rep, because I don't care what space you're in. Uh, for the most part, there's a lot of competition in a lot of spaces, right?
[00:28:46] So how are you going to separate yourself and be different? And it's by having these types of conversations and not having the same conversation that every other rep has happened with them. And this is the best time to do it because right now, as we're, you know, hopefully shifting out of this pandemic pandemonium here at some point, the outcomes people want are going to change.
[00:29:05] When the pandemic started Gartner surveyed in the tech industry. And about two months into the pandemic, they said, what do you want, what are the outcomes you want? And it flipped from before pandemic. I want scalability. I want to be able to have, you know, efficiency and productivity after the pandemic. I want resiliency.
[00:29:24] I want security. I want remote workforce. Well, guess what? You might be selling the exact same product before the pandemic, after the pandemic started. The outcomes shifted, same product, different outcomes. I think that's going to happen again in 2021 at some point. So this is a really good time to have your ear to the ground and be talking to your clients.
[00:29:44] And this is, these are great topics for your quarterly business reviews. What you don't do quarterly reviews start doing quarterly business reviews. So, yes, cause you'll learn that along the way. That's what you want to learn is you got to get the Intel. All right, dude. Hey, it's been a lot of fun. I'm an icing guy, myself too said.
[00:30:05] I'm glad I knew you were. I knew you were both. Figuratively and, um, you know, in, in, in the sales world. So, um, it just let folks know what you got for them, where you want to send them how to find out more, all that good stuff. We'll drop that in the show notes and we'll close it out. That'd be great. You know what, um, I'm going to send you, if you, if you want to learn more about this concept of value, I address it in my book, revenue growth engine.
[00:30:34] It's a sales and marketing alignment model, but if you're even sales, you're going to enjoy it as well. Text the word revenue to 21,000. And if you'll pay me shipping and handling off Cindy, a copy of the book, um, and I'd love to, you know, help drive this conversation around value because this, in my opinion is the ball game right now.
[00:30:55] Awesome. Thank you so much, Darrell. Appreciate it. Sales hustlers. If you're listening to the podcast, please subscribe, register, review, share it with your friends and we're listening for your feedback. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of sales hustle. Are you a sales professional? Looking to take your sales career to the next level.
[00:31:14] If the answer is yes, then I want you to go over to sales, cast.com, check us out. And if you feel that you are ready, set up a time to talk with me and my co-founder Chris, I'm your host column Mitchell. If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a review and share the podcast with your friends.