Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Oct. 12, 2020

Episode #5 S1-EP5 Sell Without Selling with Jason Cutter

The guest of Sales Hustle today is Jason Cutter. In this episode, we will get to know more about Jason in his 18 years in the sales world. Join as we dig into Jason's story and sales experience. There are tons of nuggets and takeaways that Collin and Jason discussed in this episode of Sales Hustle.


Throughout Jason’s career in the sales world, he has dedicated himself to coach and train sales people to create success using Authentic Persuasion. Authentic Persuasion has also been made available by Jason via book and you can get a copy available at Amazon.

There are so many takeaways that can be learned from Jason such as, Self Awareness, Authenticity, Knowing Who You Are and tons more.

You can find Jason Cutter at http://jasoncutter.com/ - this is a hub for everything about Jason inclusion of links.

You can also find the book at  https://www.authenticpersuasion.com/. You can actually download the first five chapters of the book.

If you’re listening to the Sales Hustle podcast, please subscribe, share, and we’re listening for your feedback. If you are a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a time with Collin and co-founder Chris.

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Transcript

Episode 5- Jason Cutter

Collin Mitchell: [00:00:00] Welcome to the sales hustle. The only no BS podcast, where we bring you the real raw uncut experiences from sales change makers across various industries. The only place where you can get what you're looking for to up your sales game today's episode is brought to you by sales cast sales cast helps sales professionals transform the relationship building.

[00:00:27] Process and win their dream clients. I'm your host, Colin Mitchell. All right. Welcome to today's episode. I have a special guest for you. Jason cutter, who is the founder of cutter consulting, and the soon to be bestselling author of selling with authentic persuasion I'm on chapter three, Jason was kind enough to send me a copy of the book and I'm really enjoying it.

[00:00:53] We're going to dig into Jason's story and his sales experience and give you tons of nuggets and takeaways so that you can up yourself. Jason, welcome to the show. How are you doing? 

[00:01:05] Jason Cutter: [00:01:05] I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. And thank you also what you mentioned on LinkedIn for reading the book, because you're more of an audio guy and listening to audio books.

[00:01:15] So I know how much that means for you to be reading through it. And I appreciate the love. 

[00:01:20] Collin Mitchell: [00:01:20] Yeah. Uh, you know, I, uh, I really.  I love the cover. I mean, the color cover was like super inviting. I was like, this book looks cool. It feels cool. You know, I read the beginning and then I just had not, did not have intentions of continuing to read, to be honest, it just draw, you know, it just really draw me in.

[00:01:43] And, uh, and I really wanted to read as much of it as possible before we hopped on here to record. Um, so, you know, three chapters in and, uh, and, um, I plan on continuing. So there's tons of good stuff in there. So I know that we have a lot to talk about, but before we dig deep into that stuff, just tell people high level, a little bit of your, um, you know, sales journey where it started and, uh, and kind of, you know, where it led to.

[00:02:12] Jason Cutter: [00:02:12] Uh, so let's see, where did my sales journey start officially? My first, I would say adult, like real sales job. I was 27 and a last leaf floating in the wind. Not sure what to do. Bachelors degrees in Marine biology, tagged sharks for a few years, worked at Microsoft, doing tech support for a few years, and then ended up without a job and, uh, got an offer to go work at a company, doing mortgages in the height of the real estate.

[00:02:38] Boom. Didn't require any sales. I received received zero sales training. I had no idea what to, what I was doing. In fact, funny enough. And I don't really mention this. I actually didn't know how I got paid. Like, I didn't know where the commissions really came from and the fees I just did it, it was just, I was referred to it and I'm like, okay, let's see, see how this goes.

[00:02:56] Like just, just terrible. And funny enough, how a lot of people end up starting in sales, not intentional. Just need something to do. And they go down that path. And so that kind of started me on a long journey. That's been, you know, 18 years in the making, including some breaks where I ran away from sales times where I didn't want to be a manager, but you know, a CEO would make me a VP of sales out of the blue and then I'd know, okay, what the hell do I do now?

[00:03:20] Um, and, um, which, you know, then as what I do for consulting is taking all of that. And helping individuals get better at sales, help companies build systems processes, and just do it in a way, keeping in mind. I mean, most people aren't coming at it with, you know, the God's gift of, of sales. 

[00:03:38] Collin Mitchell: [00:03:38] Alright. There's good stuff in there.

[00:03:40] Um, yeah, I, I think that's so common. So many people just kinda like fall into sales or get into sales by accident. I think like out of a lot of the sales stories that I've heard, you know, that was not their intention to get into sales. You don't. Grow up saying, I want to be a sales person. 

[00:03:58] Jason Cutter: [00:03:58] Exactly. 

[00:03:59] Collin Mitchell: [00:03:59] I mean maybe, but not many, not many, 

[00:04:02] Jason Cutter: [00:04:02] not many.

[00:04:02] And there's some people who do right. Maybe they're selling their hot wheels to other kids for pretend money instead of playing doctors, something like that. But, you know, and that's where it's tough because I'll even talk about my own experiences. I listened to someone like Gary V. Gary V was, you know, ripping people's flowers out of their front yard and reselling it to them door to door when he was a kid.

[00:04:21] And yeah, people like me can't relate and most people can't relate. It's like, no, I didn't grow. I mean, I wasn't dinosaur phase. Then I went to a sharp phase. Then I got a degree in Marine biology. Like I didn't want anything to do with people. And so. You know, I think that applies, most people can relate to that.

[00:04:36] Collin Mitchell: [00:04:36] Yeah. A lot of people that also, if you dig a little deeper, a lot of times you find that people were selling well before they actually think they were, you know, I grew up pretty poor myself, so I had to be creative if I wanted new basketball shoes. So I had to find ways to make money because I was raised by a single mom and she couldn't afford new shoes.

[00:04:55] So, you know, there's lots of signs in my life where if I look back, I was selling before I actually realized it. But for me, The sales job was the only job I could get, you know, and especially in a tough economy, like people in 2008, a lot of people got into sales, right? We're kind of going through that.

[00:05:11] Now. There's going to be a lot sales jobs are always available. Like if you, you know, I mean, people are always looking to grow their company and sales is really what feels that. So, you know, if you're out of a job, sales might be a good option for you. Um, and I know just the book to get you on the right path.

[00:05:31] Jason Cutter: [00:05:31] Well, and that's where like, even, you know, talking about that, that's partly why I wrote it. That's why I have my podcast is for those people who are in sales, they're struggling or they've plateaued. And they're just looking for something new, like a hit of, of sometimes a reminder of what they used to do that worked well, that they forgot right.

[00:05:47] Joke about it. I I'm I'm now at that age and with that experience where I've forgotten more about sales than some people out there. Like currently, no, like I'm now that guy that's using those lines. Um, but there's people who are thinking about getting into sales, but they're afraid, like how do I do it? I don't want to be that person.

[00:06:01] I don't want to have to manipulate and trick people. So how do you even win? And, uh, yeah. I mean, there's, there's a lot of people in that situation. 

[00:06:09] Collin Mitchell: [00:06:09] Yeah. You know, I think that, unfortunately there's a lot of salespeople out there that have given. Sales a, a bad impression, right? Like people think of sales as something bad or not proud of to be.

[00:06:27] And, and that's changing. Cause there's more people that are doing sales right. Where it's more of a servant mentality, more of serving others, but that's more of a transition. Do you agree with that? 

[00:06:38] Jason Cutter: [00:06:38] Hunter a hundred percent agree. I mean, it's, it's kind of the same thing with political views, maybe racism or cultural issues where sales is also, it's been a dirty word because of how it's been done.

[00:06:50] The Wolf of wall, Street's the boiler, the mad men's the like just the, just the class type of tactics, right. Where it's about pushing and tricking people into it. And then versus now there's this generation, but still you're right. I mean, sales is kind of a dirty word and anybody who. Disagrees with me on that.

[00:07:07] I tell them, I say, okay, well, what's your title? I'm an account executive. I'm a business development representative. 

[00:07:14] Collin Mitchell: [00:07:14] Okay. Advisor 

[00:07:15] Jason Cutter: [00:07:15] technology advisor, right? Like I'm a solutions engineer. Like that's what you say when you're embarrassed by what you do. Right. Like, you know, it's no, you're a salesperson. And so the fact that companies do that and some, you know, some of it's about titles, which is always important and it feels good and it's important.

[00:07:34] Some of it's just masking the fact that I, at the end of the day, I'm going to try to convince you to buy something and you're going to pay for it. 

[00:07:41] Collin Mitchell: [00:07:41] Right. No, a hundred percent. And you know what? Full disclosure, I was taught a lot of the wrong thing, things in sales. When I started, you know, my first sales job, I was selling printer cartridges over the phone.

[00:07:53] And you know what? I was grateful for the opportunity because it was better than moving furniture, which is what I was doing at the time. And I knew that I wasn't going to make a career out of moving furniture as much as I enjoyed it. Staying in shape and being out there, lifting stuff, you know, that was going to wear out quickly.

[00:08:09] And, uh, you know, I got my first sales job and that job consists of, okay, here's the script. Um, here's a list of names. And here's a half broken CRM that we don't recommend. You use training was pretty much somebody's breathing down the back of my neck of like slamming on the table. Don't say that and say this, and I didn't know what I was doing.

[00:08:34] So, you know, I started parroting things that other people were saying, and some of those things weren't right. Or true or honest. Um, and some of the older people that had been there for while it was like, Hey, you should stop saying that. I know he says it over there and. You know, he closes a lot of deals, but what you're saying is not true.

[00:08:51] And I'm like, Oh, you know, I just, I really didn't know. And, you know, I was brought up in sales where it was like, okay, you will, we care about your commission check and the next day, that's it. You know, it was really, you throw out an offer. If they don't buy you throw in another offer. If they don't buy you change the subject you throw in another offer.

[00:09:11] If they don't buy it, then you better get a commitment for them to buy the future. And that was it. Um, and that was the script. You know, I did learn some good things though. I good. I learned, you know, good old fashioned hard work. I was the first one in the office everyday last one to leave. And I came in on Sundays or Saturdays to get my list ready for the next week, you know?

[00:09:28] And so there's, there's some things that I did learn out of that. Um, but you know, there's still a lot of people that are doing things that 

[00:09:36] Jason Cutter: [00:09:36] way. Yeah. And, and w unfortunately your experience was, is not just an isolated incident. That's how most people enter sales. That's what they're taught. And then unfortunately, with a lack of training and leadership, which has happened, even some of my clients, like they just, they don't have that structure and they're not putting in the time they haven't developed it.

[00:09:58] And they hope people just bring their natural talents. Right. And so the problem is, is that. It was what happens. A new person sits there kind of lost kind of losing. And it's like, okay, well, Bob, over there is doing really well. He's putting, you know, he's ringing the bell lots and he's putting lots of marks on the whiteboard.

[00:10:15] So let me just copy him. Right. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I've, I've seen that same sense of it. I I've in fact run teams where I'm listening to recordings of raps and I don't even know where the people sit in the office. In advance, but I can listen to a recording of a new person and know exactly who they're sitting next to, because I know what they're saying, and they're copying somebody else.

[00:10:38] Who's crap. And I'm just like, I know exactly. I could draw the seating chart just based on the recordings, because I know like it's, it's a parasite. I can tell where that influence go. 

[00:10:49] Collin Mitchell: [00:10:49] Yeah. And I think that that's something that in that sort of environment, you know, that's part of the training, just start, start, soaking up.

[00:10:57] What other people are saying around you. And, you know, you gotta be cautious of like, what are they saying? You know, what are their, what are their where's their more lines crossing or not exactly. Um, and you know, a lot of people are stuck in a spot where they got to go out and get their own resources.

[00:11:15] Right. And that's what I did. I started, you know, following certain blogs and listening to certain podcasts and reading certain books to really get in line with more of what I believed in personally. And implementing that and integrating that with who I was as a sales person. Um, and you know, I think that your book is a great example of that.

[00:11:34] Jason Cutter: [00:11:34] I realized last week for the first time ever that I have never received sales training at an organization that I've ever been at. In fact, I have been hired many times as an employee, as a leader in sales, right. To come in and then figure out what. How they should actually sell it and then actually build the script and the training.

[00:11:55] And then I become the trainer for something I was never trained on. Um, I have never sat through like, okay, here's how you sell. Here's how you do this. Here's the process. I've never actually received that. And most people haven't. Hmm. 

[00:12:07] Collin Mitchell: [00:12:07] All right. So let's get into some, some tactical things for people just getting into sales.

[00:12:12] Like what are some things based on your experience and the different environments that you've worked in and the training that you've provided for folks and, you know, things from the book, like what are some good sound pieces of advice that you give people just getting into sales? 

[00:12:29] Jason Cutter: [00:12:29] I think the first thing, because everyone wants like the tactics and the strategies.

[00:12:33] And tell me what to say. Tell me what the, how to ask for the sale and tell me the . And I wrote the book in the same way. I think people should approach things, which is the first part is self awareness, which will lead to the authenticity. But you really have to know who you are first, right? None of those strategies will matter.

[00:12:50] And kind of going back to your example of like copying what. The person next to you in the next desk over dead. It may actually with good intentions, it might actually work for them, but that's because it fits who they are when you copy that. It's, it's hard to sustain it longterm because you're just kind of pretend and you're acting like them, but it's not right.

[00:13:09] Real. So the first part is the self awareness. Like what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? How do you leverage what you're you're strongest at? What are the traits to be successful? Things like open openness, curiosity, persistence, creativity. And how do you do those things and bring those to the conversation?

[00:13:27] So that's the first part. And really one of the biggest things where a lot of salespeople fail is right from the beginning, which is, they don't even know why they're doing it. Yes. They want to make money. Yes. They want to have an income. Yes. They, they, they want to feel good about what they're doing, but like why, what is the purpose?

[00:13:42] What would you put on your vision board, which is in fact, usually the first thing I have, anybody I'll make sure or coaching individually or working with the team. The first activity we do old school printing pictures, scissors, cutting them out, taping them together, making a vision board of like, why, why does it matter to you?

[00:14:01] Why do you want to close more deals? Like, what is it when, how does that fit into what you want longer? Because when you get told no 20 times, what's going to get you to pick up the phone that 21st time, like, why do you want to do it? Why is it important to you? That's it like once you have that set the tactics and the strategies.

[00:14:19] Become secondary and easy. 

[00:14:22] Collin Mitchell: [00:14:22] Yeah, no, I think this is spot on. Right. So I think like, what you're saying just to recap is, is really, it's a personal, it's the personal inside work, right? Like you got to do some personal inside work on yourself, so you can show up as your best self to integrate that into whatever sales role you're in.

[00:14:38] Right. Really having a driver. A purpose right. Of why you're doing what you're doing. Why are you picking up that phone? What is the for you personally to keep doing it day in, day out, and then I think it even, yeah, it goes deeper than that. Like, why are you selling what you're selling? How does that help the person on the other end of the phone?

[00:14:57] And if you don't believe in that, then it's really hard to continue to pick up the 

[00:15:00] Jason Cutter: [00:15:00] phone. And if we look at your example of when you didn't have any training and, and, and any leadership, and you're kind of parroting, you're trying to figure it out. And then you said like, that's not working. Let me go, go out on my own and figure it out.

[00:15:12] That's the shift that most salespeople, when they make that it helps them be successful. And the difference is. I'm going from extrinsic motivations to intrinsic. So extrinsic motivation is the carrot or the stick, which is how most sales teams are managed. Right? If you sell, I'm going to give you a high five, I'm going to give you some money.

[00:15:30] I'm going to send you to the Caribbean. I'm going to do whatever the problem is, is that's short lift, right? Cause it's always got to get higher and higher. The other one is the fear of pain, which is the you sell or I fire you, right? Yeah. And so when you can shift it to intrinsic, it doesn't matter. I'm going to crush it and bust my ass, figuring it out.

[00:15:47] For me, I don't care. Right. Like when I've sat in sales teams, a couple of times, like as a salesperson, like later on in my career, when I've kind of gone back into it, I'm like put me in the cube, farthest away from everyone else. Cause I don't care and I'm not here for them. I'm here for me know, I'm just going to just, I'm just going to crush it 

[00:16:05] Collin Mitchell: [00:16:05] because you're really in touch with what your wife, it is all 

[00:16:08] Jason Cutter: [00:16:08] about me.

[00:16:08] I'm playing my game. Right. 

[00:16:11] Collin Mitchell: [00:16:11] And, and what's even. You know, another point to kind of piggyback on that when you can help your customer understand why they're in Trent, what their intrinsic motivation is for why they would want whatever product or service you're offering, all bets are off with your success.

[00:16:29] Jason Cutter: [00:16:29] And that's the persuasion piece. So that's the second part in the formula. When we move past, like you understanding who you are and why you do do it, and what makes you amazing wrong in your own way, then the persuasion, right? That's that's the second step into the first is rapport. And then the second one is empathy and diving deep with the discovery, until you can answer the single question that matters the most, which is why does your customer want to buy what you have.

[00:16:57] For their reasons. Most sales people don't know that most people have no idea what that is. No, in fact, usually what happens is salespeople get off the phone. I'm like, Hey, what happened? Oh, they're super excited. I'm going to send them a followup email, and then they're going to get back to me. I say, that's great.

[00:17:12] Why would they want to buy from you? Why would they want to buy your SAS platform? Why do they want to buy this, this solution 

[00:17:18] Collin Mitchell: [00:17:18] or more and better? What's even. Why do they even want to deal with you specifically? 

[00:17:24] Jason Cutter: [00:17:24] Yeah. Why you. Why this, why now? Why any of it? And most sellers can't answer that cause they're going through the motions or they're afraid to ask, they're afraid to dive deep.

[00:17:34] Um, and they just don't, they're hoping, right. That's why I use the subtitle for the book has transformed from order taker to quota breaker. Cause a lot of people are order takers. They mean, well they care, but they're there. They're hoping on hope right there. They're closing strategy and their sales success is hope.

[00:17:51] Right. 

[00:17:51] Collin Mitchell: [00:17:51] And I think the order takers, you can just move them to the customer service or technical support department 

[00:17:58] Jason Cutter: [00:17:58] and yeah. And there's some people who that's where they should go because that's, and that's why the authenticity pieces is there. Right? Like in the first chapter of the book, like, are you an order taker?

[00:18:07] If so, nothing wrong with that. Put a square peg in a square hole. And find what works for you now, if you're an order taker, because you just don't know, or you're untrained or you're afraid, but you want to be successful, then that's different. Then we can make that shift. 

[00:18:24] Collin Mitchell: [00:18:24] I mean, I would argue to say that there's a lot of sales organizations that majority of the sales folks 

[00:18:32] Jason Cutter: [00:18:32] are order 

[00:18:32] Collin Mitchell: [00:18:32] takers majority a hundred percent.

[00:18:35] Jason Cutter: [00:18:35] Yep. 

[00:18:36] Collin Mitchell: [00:18:36] And. So, is that a problem

[00:18:43] Jason Cutter: [00:18:43] where it comes down to a problem is what is the framework set around them? So let's say you do have a team full of order takers. So what's the structure, what's the framework. And then what's the expectation. And then what has management put in place around them as systems and processes? So I'll give you an example because one of the other things I make as the main focus of my consulting side with companies who want to let's say.

[00:19:05] Fix a team like that is I use the term McDonaldization of the sales team. So how do you McDonald the eyes, your sales process? And usually people don't have good thoughts of McDonald's, but yeah, one thing they do really well is they churn out millions. Of hamburgers and fries a day consistently all over the world.

[00:19:24] It's the same French fry, the same hamburger. And I've been to many of them around the world. Yeah. It's usually done by minimum wage, age entry level, returning workers, you know, back in the day, it was the job to start out as a teenager. It was that first job most people got yet it's consistent and it's amazing.

[00:19:42] And so when you take that approach and apply it to sales, what you do is you built all the systems and the processes around somebody where literally they don't have to think about how many pickles do I put on it? No, this is what you do. Here's the formula. And then that order taker, because they mean, well, if you plug them into a system, the system will take care of all the other stuff.

[00:20:02] And all they have to do is have a conversation and then they will get stronger, but their part is easy and it's narrowed. They're not expected to do everything right. When you build it that way, you can actually get really good results on a team full of order takers, because you're not relying on them.

[00:20:17] You have a system. Hmm. 

[00:20:19] Collin Mitchell: [00:20:19] Interesting. I've never thought of it that way. So there is a place for order takers in the sales world when done properly with proper systems in place. 

[00:20:30] Jason Cutter: [00:20:30] Yes. And they can't be pure order takers, but they can, you know, you can get at a certain level of success out of them. And obviously the goal is to elevate and move them up.

[00:20:40] Um, what most organizations try to do is just have all superstars. Yeah. They want to have a room with 2050. Whatever it is all superstars. They want to fill the whole team and the bench with LeBron, James, and you never see that. You never see it in sports. You don't see it in any organizations where you have just 108 players.

[00:21:00] Like it, it implodes, it's just not possible. And so you have to know how to get everyone to perform well enough, um, for the consistent 

[00:21:07] Collin Mitchell: [00:21:07] results. Right, right. Okay. Now talk to me a little bit about, okay. So we talked a little bit about, you know, some things for people just getting into sales, which I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of people that are in that place right now, given the current, you know, times and situations.

[00:21:23] Um, what about, what about your sales person? That's, you know, been, you know, somewhere awhile, been in sales, Not feeling motivated, you know, they've really reached their ceiling and just can't take it to the next level. Maybe they're just your classic quarter taker. What do you tell those folks 

[00:21:41] Jason Cutter: [00:21:41] really comes back to like, why are you doing it?

[00:21:44] Why do you want to do it? And why would you want to create more success? Because that's, what's going to fire you up, right. Especially right now where there's a lot of people working remote they're at home. They're not in the environment, they're not around the energy. And they're just feeling kind of like isolated on an Island and tough to be motivated.

[00:21:58] That's where you've gotta be motivated for yourself. And then what you've got to do is you've gotta be honest, take an assessment, like where's my results. Um, and then where is my effort and where is my skill and what needs to change, right? Like if you're not healthy and you're not in shape where you want to be with your, your body, you know, don't be like, Oh, well, you know, I wish I was in better shape, shape, and I should be, it's like, okay, where are you at?

[00:22:22] What are you doing? What are the inputs? And then what needs to change? Where can I get help? And then what can I do? And then also play the long game. I think a lot of people want instant results. They want like a quick fix, everyone, you know, instant gratification mode. It's like, okay, what can I work on over the next three months, six months, 12 months, and play the long game.

[00:22:43] Life is, life is long, most of the time. And so play the long game. 

[00:22:48] Collin Mitchell: [00:22:48] Right. No, I think that's great. And I think that like, yeah, finding that reason why, but going deeper, right? Like not just use the, you know, losing weight example, which is a classic example that I think a lot of people can relate to. Right.

[00:23:01] But not like, Hey, I want to lose 20 pounds because I want to lose 20 pounds. That's not going to be enough to get you to show up at the gym every day. Well, why do you want to lose those 20 pounds? What does that mean for you personally? Well, you want to be healthy for your kids or your grandkids, or you want to be able to.

[00:23:16] You know, run around the block and chase your kids or, um, you know, or you have some certain event or thing that you're going to, that you want to look like your best self. Like it's gotta be deeper beyond just, I want to lose weight or, you know, I want to relate it back to sales. Oh. Because I want to make more money.

[00:23:32] Why do you want to make more money? Well, I want to buy a house. I want to buy a new car. I want to do this. You got to look beyond just the surface level of why you think you want to do something. 

[00:23:41] Jason Cutter: [00:23:41] Yup, exactly. 

[00:23:43] Collin Mitchell: [00:23:43] All right. So now what about, what about sales leaders, sales leaders? What advice do you have for sales leaders that are trying to help these, you know, Or, uh, order takers, you know, potentially, maybe self-assess, Hey, is, am I in the right role?

[00:24:01] Or how do I convert to a quota crusher? Or how do I, you know, if I'm somebody who's hit the ceiling go to the next level, what do you tell those sales leaders? How can they support people in their organization? Um, two, you know, evaluate themselves and basically implement some of the things that we've talked about.

[00:24:18] Jason Cutter: [00:24:18] Funny enough, I, because you know, and this is a tenement, especially, you know, part of my podcast, I ended every way is everything in life is sales. And so it's interesting because my same, the advice to sales leaders on what they need to do to help their team succeed is the same as my advice and process and system for sales individuals on how they can be success.

[00:24:41] One of which is what you talked about and. Kind of tied around, which is for, to be successful in sales. It's about why does your customer want what you have, why you, why now what's important to them. A good salesperson knows what's on their customer's vision board or what keeps them up at two in the morning.

[00:24:59] Right? Like they know depending on what you're selling, it's it's varied, but like they know a really good sales leader. Is a coach, not a manager, right? It's not about managing and micromanaging. It's about coaching. And then it's also about understanding the why for every one of your team members, 

[00:25:18] Collin Mitchell: [00:25:18] which takes a lot of which takes a lot of time.

[00:25:21] And, you know, I think. You know this, I think this is a great point and I couldn't agree more with you. Um, but the problem that I see is a lot of sales leaders want that cookie cutter way that is gonna work for everybody. And if they found a way that works for their, their, their rock star, you know, person, who's not, they think that way is going to work for everybody else and it's not true.

[00:25:44] Um, and, uh, you know, getting really deep and personal on individual people and being more of a coach is. I wish more people did it that way. 

[00:25:54] Jason Cutter: [00:25:54] So here's, what's fascinating if we really look at what happens and I've seen many organizations and I've seen many managers, um, typically what happens is an organization says, Hey, you're really good at sales.

[00:26:05] We need a manager. I'm going to make you a manager. So they top. Ish sales rep. Usually top one will say no and just put their feet down. So it's usually somebody that's not really the best. It's more like your average. You show up every day, you seem to have a good attitude and I don't want to fire you or punch you in the face.

[00:26:25] So I'm going to make you a manager. And so now all of a sudden you're a manager. And so what happens literally what you just described. It's also what ineffective salespeople do, which is they treat everyone the same. They want it to be cookie cutter. They want every prospect is have the same problem and they want to throw the same monologue and the same features and benefits conversation at them.

[00:26:45] I hope that they buy and that's what they do. And then as they grow, grow up to be managers, and then what happens? They treat everyone the same. They think that everyone is motivated in the same way that they were, which is high fives or money or ringing the bell or time off. They, they treat everyone the same.

[00:27:01] And so they have this self centered perspective that they had as a salesperson. Now they have it as a manager and then they're struggling. Right. And they just can't make that, that transition. And they didn't have it as a sales person. They don't have as a manager. Right. Some really good managers I've seen.

[00:27:19] And I haven't one guy that worked for me. He had 40 sales reps and I would ask him, cause I was just curious, I'd be like, Hey, you know, tell me what, what do they want? And he could go through every single person and explain what they wanted in life. What was important to them and then also how to motivate them because here's the other thing is some people love and need to be recognized stage in front of the group, high fives.

[00:27:44] You got to give them an award or certificate, you know, they did something, right. They've gotta be up there. If you don't recognize them, they will quit trying because that's what drives them. Other people on the team, you bring them up into the front of the room during a big team meeting and you recognize them.

[00:27:59] They hate the embarrassment. They don't feel like they deserve it. They just want to hide under their desk. And they will also stop performing because they never want to come up front again and get recognized. Wow. You've got to know. Okay. Who you've got and what work who you can, you can poke at and kind of make fun of and who loves that and who, if you do that, takes them back.

[00:28:17] So when they were bullied as a kid and they'll shut down and probably complained to HR about you, right? So a good manager knows all of that. And then coaches, the team not micromanage is not beats, not, not that threatens, but coaches. 

[00:28:32] Collin Mitchell: [00:28:32] Wow. Okay. Now, and I think, tell me if you agree with this. I think the reason a lot of people hired in sales reps and up to sales managers is because they, a lot of organizations think that their product or service is so unique that they have to hire somebody who knows what they do so well.

[00:28:52] Um, it, would you agree or 

[00:28:54] Jason Cutter: [00:28:54] disagree with that? There's there's two sides. So there's that mentality, which happens a lot. Um, and then there's also the, the situation that happens, which is we need a manager. Um, we need one now, like starting Monday. And so who do we got who's on the bench, right? Uh, if you think about in sports, uh, LeBron James is hurt.

[00:29:16] Who do we got? Let's look around. Uh, okay. Hey you guy number 10. Okay. On the bench you come up now, you're the, you're the lead of the team. And so that's really what happens. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a promotion by desperation in organizations, which is. Who do we got? I got a square peg, eh, that'll work ish.

[00:29:36] Um, and then we'll hope that it works. 

[00:29:39] Collin Mitchell: [00:29:39] So how do you, how do people address fixing a problem like that? 

[00:29:44] Jason Cutter: [00:29:44] It's an assessment. The thing it's about getting the right, making sure the right people are on the bus. Right? Jim Collins. Good to great. He talked about that and then getting people in the right seats.

[00:29:53] And so sometimes it's about moving people around. It's about changing their roles. Some really. Some, some people in sales management roles are actually really good at part of it. Just not all of it. And so if you have the ability, it's like, which parts are they really good at? And let's keep them in the zone.

[00:30:08] Like how do they just do what they do best on whatever that looks like. And then how do we bring something in? Because. It's usually hard to find that perfect manager, that perfect leader, that perfect sales rep perfect sales rep doesn't exist. Right. They're either really good at talking on the phone and selling, or they're really good at their CRM and their note taking and their data entry.

[00:30:27] Most people aren't good at both. So like how do you build around it? Right, 

[00:30:31] Collin Mitchell: [00:30:31] right, right. Uh, all right. So now. I want to bring up one thing that's pretty controversial and I want to see your opinion on it. So I'll see what side of the fence you land on? Um, there's a lot of talk. I'm sure you've heard it like about sales.

[00:30:47] Rolling up SDRs, rolling up to sales or marketing. What's your take on that? 

[00:30:52] Jason Cutter: [00:30:52] So which category they fall under, 

[00:30:55] Collin Mitchell: [00:30:55] they should roll up to cause a lot of people have the argument that, Hey, SDR is on the front line, getting those sales qualified leads. Should they roll up to marketing or should they roll up to sales?

[00:31:04] Jason Cutter: [00:31:04] I, for me and somebody asked me, John Welsh asked me this last week and, uh, um, we had this discussion as well. Cause I was thinking about it for me. It really depends on what the ultimate like where they're going to go later on. Right. If somebody is an SDR and the progression plan is for them to learn, learn, and then move up to be an account executive and be in sales, then I feel like that's a breeding ground and should fall under sales and selling because that's what they're doing.

[00:31:33] However, generally the activity of what the STRs are doing is just marketing. Right. They're taking something. They're finding people, they're serving a marketing function. And then what they're doing is handing stuff over the problem is most organizations treat it like it's the, it's the, it's the farm league.

[00:31:49] Right? Right. You put people in as SDRs. You promise them that after a year to two years, they're going to be able to, to graduate and then make the big money and have the good parking spot. Uh, and they're going to be in sales. And so that's where it gets really messy. Ultimately for me, I would put into marketing when I have done, especially direct to consumer business, to consumer models, right.

[00:32:09] Telemarketing, which is SDR world for like B2B, telemarketing was marketing. It was fed by marketing. The leads were given to them by marketing. The dialer was running by run by the marketing telemarketing person. They sat in a separate room. It was two separate entities and beast. Um, And it wasn't a, nobody went from telemarketing to sales because the type of person that did telemarketing totally different person, usually someone who doesn't like the pressure of closing, they have no problem pounding the phones.

[00:32:39] They just don't want to be a closer. And so it's about how you set it up. 

[00:32:44] Collin Mitchell: [00:32:44] All right. We know where you land now. All right. So thanks so much for coming on today. Really appreciate it, Jason, before I let you go tell folks obviously where they can find you, where they can find the book and what you have for them today.

[00:33:03] Jason Cutter: [00:33:03] So, uh, they can find, find me the best easiest way as Jason cutter.com. So if you go there, it's a hub for everything and where I'm at. So the consulting side also on LinkedIn, but if you go to that one site, it's got links to everywhere. Um, you can also find the book@directlythroughauthenticpersuasion.com.

[00:33:21] And if you go on there, you can actually download five sample, like the first five chapters of the book to check it out. And get an idea if it's for you get some nuggets in that stop in what's there. Um, you know, as, as my way, just to see if it's something you want before you dive into it. 

[00:33:41] Collin Mitchell: [00:33:41] Okay, awesome. We will make sure to share the link for that and thanks so much for coming on today.

[00:33:46] Appreciate it. 

[00:33:47] Jason Cutter: [00:33:47] Thanks Colin for having me. 

[00:33:49] Collin Mitchell: [00:33:49] Thank you for tuning in to this episode of sales hustle. Are you a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level? If the answer is yes, then I want you to go over to sales cast.com, check 

[00:34:04] Jason Cutter: [00:34:04] us out. 

[00:34:05] Collin Mitchell: [00:34:05] And if you feel that you are ready, set up a time to talk with me and my co founder, Chris, I'm your host, Colin Mitchell.

[00:34:13] And if you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a review. And share the podcast with your friends.