Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Dec. 30, 2020

Episode #39 S1-EP39 empowering your lead-gen with Anupreet Singh

Anupreet Singh joins Collin Mitchell in this episode of the Sales Hustle Podcast. Anupreet shares a brief background from being a coder to becoming better in sales. He shares sales data points that he and his team are currently working on.

Anupreet Singh is the Sales Director at Slintel. Slintel helps sellers understand who is most likely to buy their product today. They have mapped 40000+ technologies to 20 million companies today and capture their movement over time. Slintel uses this data to predict buying behavior, spend, usage trends, and renewals.

You can find Anupreet Singh on LinkedIn at

Here are links you can refer which include Anupreet’s eBook.

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Episode 39

Welcome to the sales hustle. The only no BS podcast, where we bring you the real raw uncut experiences from sales makers across various industries. The only place where you can get what you're looking for too. Uh, your sales game today's episode is brought to you by sales cast sales cast helps sales professionals transform the relationship building process and win their dream clients.

[00:00:30] I'm your host, Colin Mitchell. All right. What is happening in sales hustlers? Welcome to another episode. I've got a special guest all the way from India. I've got Anna preach, sing of . Uh, I had the privilege of meeting and on LinkedIn and, and, uh, participating in an event that they're putting on giving back to the sales community.

[00:00:50] So I'm super excited to, for you guys to get to know and freed, and also learn a little bit about data and outbound and the things that him and his team are working on. And really thanks for coming on the show today. Thank you for him. I didn't call him. It's Dino failure knowing you. And it's awesome that I'm on your show on your show now.

[00:01:07] So it was great to have you on ironic sessions and I'm here to give it back to the community that follows you. Yeah. So tell all the sales, hustlers that are listening, uh, how you got into sales and a little bit about your story. But as I always say, give us the short version, cause we want to save this time to give them as many tactical tips that they can, uh, apply when they get back to the office.

[00:01:29] No, absolutely. Uh, so I like to believe that I'm one of the youngest sales leaders in the industry. I'm 28. Um, I'm leading a sales function. How does happen, uh, is in the span of last five years, then I started my career as a coder and then realized while I was also running a startup in parallel that I'm better at setting than at coding.

[00:01:47] And I immediately made a switch. And you are basically, I was, you know, uh, uh, in front of some investors pitching my own product when they actually told me that, Hey, be constantly. Uh, give you funding, but I can actually refer you to a company that we funded and you might want to explore that position as a sales person.

[00:02:02] Right. And I started talking to the companies that were looking for sales, uh, you know, people. And I came across, uh, a pool company called metal, which later got acquired by Mercer. And while I was there, I kind of scaled up from becoming a NSCR to a, to a CS leader for two of their continents. He was in Europe in a span of three years.

[00:02:22] And my claim to fame was the fact that they got acquired by Mercer. And as soon as Mercer required metal, uh, you know, I realized that, uh, I like to, I enjoy more, uh, being in the startup ecosystem and that then translate to last year CSV. So this is obviously this happened to me in dessert and, you know, grew with the company, uh, that, that grew very fast.

[00:02:41] So I like, I would think keeping a close to maybe close to, you know, young companies that are going very fast. So centrally as again, one of those companies I am with them right now. Wow. Okay. All right. So that's an interesting story. I have interviewed quite a lot of salespeople and you know, some of the, most of the stories are fairly common.

[00:02:58] They fall into sales by accident, which is kind of similar to your story, but this is the first time I've heard that, uh, you were pitching and got offered a job instead of an investment. Yeah, absolutely. I'm actually, that was one of the coolest advice because I was a green, 40 year old kid trying to pitch my startup and.

[00:03:15] I, I did realize after that, that there was so much more that I need to learn before I go back to becoming an entrepreneur. And this is my, my, you know, back my, my playful, I'm just enjoying myself learning every day, uh, before I probably try, try, uh, with another startup sometime they should. Yeah. And you know, what's interesting is, is, is, you know, I, I, I network with a lot of salespeople and I've got.

[00:03:38] You know, a lot of people that are in sales, in my network and the listeners. And I talked to a lot of these people and, um, you know, sales is one of the most important skills, right? So if you want to be an entrepreneur, you want to be a founder. You want to start a SAS company or a tech company, or whatever you want to do, like start with a sales job, whatever that looks like, whatever sales roles start, wherever you need to work your way up, you know, get to the point where you're maybe leading a team.

[00:04:06] Um, and then you can go start whatever you want, because if you don't have that fundamental foundation of how to sell a product or service, there's a pretty good chance that, you know, you're going to have a tough time. I believe that, you know, founders need to have that. Skill. What do you think? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:26] I think there are two core skills that a founder should have. One is engineering, like, like coding. If you're building an ID, SAS product, you need to either have any gender in the founder founding panel, or you need to be an engineer yourself. And the second is sense. I mean, you just can't get started with, without these two skills and I'm blessed to be a computer science engineer, a coder, and then turn into a sales guy.

[00:04:47] So I think, uh, you know, I kind of am equipped enough to create a small app and try to set it myself too. Make money in our school kind of hired my first two sales people, our first marketeer, et cetera. But I think everything else can wait, uh, engineering, if you're building a SAS product cannot, and I'd say this cannot, right.

[00:05:03] So, and, and if you have to spend money on day one to hire these two guys, I mean, you always will keep thinking about starting your company again, it's just writing that piece of code and trying to sell it yourself. Uh, you know, without, as a one-man show. Right. So I think these are two core skills that, uh, can help you start set up very quickly.

[00:05:21] Yeah. So you're a bit of a unicorn. You have both, uh, both, both, uh, skills required to have a successful startup, right? Yeah, at least I like to believe that I should come into action and I haven't actually started, so. All right. Let's talk about a few things. We're going to talk about data. We're going to talk about outbound.

[00:05:41] I mean, I'm guessing your team can never complain and say, we don't have enough leads big. I know they have 184 million people provides them like cool, go bonkers over it. Right. But, uh, yeah, they cannot. Uh, but you know, As much as, you know, data as much as you know, uh, uh, we, we like to believe that we have a lot of data.

[00:06:02] We really believe that it's all about finding that right ICP, uh, which is very, this should be very, very targeted. So the ideal customer profile should be, you know, understood really well, uh, within every, you know, sales function. And once you understand that this is the audience that will. Actually buy from you.

[00:06:20] Uh, you know, that's when you go all in with that particular ICP and I strongly believe that ICP is no longer based on just the demographics, uh, and you know, uh, the, uh, the size of the company. So, you know, if someone did, he does, if I ask this question, what is your license, if a product, uh, and if they can hate, we like to sell in us and more than 200 employees companies.

[00:06:39] Uh, the first thing that I tell them is that you're sending the 2015 style. I mean we're in 2020, let's stop.  that's way too broad. Um, so, so let's talk about how granular can you get to really nail down your ICP? Yeah, sure. Um, so I think as, as a sales leader, or in fact as an SDR team members as well, you should need, you need to understand what a Pirate's journey looks like.

[00:07:07] Right? So in a buyer's journey, Typically your buyer's journey. Start from a stage where in, you know, they're bought into your ecosystem. Most of the SAS tools that you see in the market today belong to an ecosystem. So when, if you have an HR tech tool, you belong to any broader ecosystem, which is probably an HRMS or an ATS, and you integrate with them.

[00:07:26] If you're a sales tech tool, you probably belong to an ecosystem of Salesforce or HubSpot or Marketo, and you integrate with them. So you need to first understand what is your ecosystem? Uh, and you need to first then understand what the company is using that ecosystem because that just, you know, brings you down to only a handful of companies that have been out.

[00:07:44] That'd be great. So as soon as someone buys Salesforce, I can paste them into the saying that, Hey, if you simply bought Salesforce, how does your funnel look like? Or do you think you need a tool to, uh, provide you with sales intelligence that now that I know that your PCT processes, so techno six today is super.

[00:08:03] Uh, you know, helpful in this particular direction and just kind of, uh, take an ICP around the tools that you are, uh, audiences talking about building an ICP based on the technologies that they're using. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's, there's many tools similar to yours that are tracking these technology used.

[00:08:21] How accurate is that information and how real-time is that information? As far as like. When somebody signs up for a new technology, when does that data become available? Um, and how accurate it is as far as like, if they change a technology or not. Sure. Um, so, um, our analysis, right? I believe it's not a problem with accuracy.

[00:08:43] It's probably a problem of coverage and these are two different things. So basically for Salesforce, for example, skincare has around 60,000 companies that are using Salesforce today on this platform. But Salesforce probably has 120,950,000 customers today. We don't know, or any techno technographics provider would know all the customers of technology.

[00:09:03] Uh, but they don't want more, you know, more than enough that you need for, for, to see us as you are in to go after. And within that, the accuracy is usually very, very high. And the reason we have that is that the technical facts are based on tissue signatures, that these technologies leave when someone is using them.

[00:09:19] Um, so as soon as, as a company starts using a particular technology, for example, if you notice the URL of your Salesforce, it says my thought. Your company So slinky has your intelligent ways of identifying where that image could be, but a particular technology, it could be on the URL and it could be on the, you know, JavaScript, HTML source code.

[00:09:39] And if it's, uh, you know, hardware technology, or if it's behind the firewall technology, it might be in the job descriptions so they can read two job descriptions and see, Hey, it looks like they're hiring for an engineer, but in the event that they're using. You know, uh, AWS, uh, easy to servers and they need experience working with AWS and need experience working with Python.

[00:09:58] This is gives us an understanding into the core programming languages that they're using, the backend frameworks that they're using, et cetera. So it is highly accurate because it's coming from, you know, trusted sources, but is the coverage a hundred percent? Not really. Um, the second part of your question, I think was how recent it is and how the UK industry.

[00:10:13] Sustained. Uh, you know, the sessions is database of technical office every weekend. So we start on, you know, doctors that these are 20,000 of them every Friday night. And it takes us three days to complete the entire phone. So we check for 40,000 technologies and all the dishes initials are on around 15 million company websites and all further, the further, you know, webpages that they have.

[00:10:34] So it's a massive run that I'm talking about. Yeah, we're getting, we're getting a little, we're getting a little too deep in the weeds here. We know more about data than we care to know now. Um, so, all right, so let's talk about the SDR BDR full cycle rep, a ha that when they have, when they're able to get this sort of information, what does that look like?

[00:10:57] How do they reach out and be different? How do they incorporate that into their messaging? Whether it's email, LinkedIn phone. Let's take a look at that and talk about what you're seeing and what your team does with, you know, with this information. Yeah, absolutely. So funny story, right. I, uh, I was consulting this small startup of  to me saying that, Hey, we are doing everything right.

[00:11:20] Uh, you keep talking about personalization in all your talks and impact. And what I've read is that, you know, uh, personalization really works, but we don't get things. Right. My, my emails, I might have stopped sending a highly personalized. And we are still not getting responses. And I looked at that email and the personalization was, Hey, Colin, I see that you're working in this company.

[00:11:39] I see that, uh, you know, it's been five years of you working in this company, uh, buy my product. Now this is not personalization, right? Adding the name of the company. You are adding the tenure focus. The person has worked at that compete is not personalization. So of course, so when you have this kind of a sales intelligence tool, your personalization could go to the extent of, Hey, I see that you're using Salesforce.

[00:12:00] And I noticed that, you know, the shoving using Salesforce in the last few months also, you got funded, uh, very recently by Axel and Sequoia, uh, seems to look like, you know, you're gonna go go bonkers, but you're hiding. How about I give you a tool that helps you with your scale help you when you scale your sales team.

[00:12:19] And also I noticed that you are five job openings for these different roles. Uh, and I think we can actually help the sales team that you're hiding right now. Uh, but the tools that I'm talking about. Right. So, so basically this has told them that I, I went to the job post. Exactly. What's listed. I went to yours, uh, latest continues and it, I went to your yeah.

[00:12:37] And not the stack. And I know a lot about it. And now I'm sitting in the store with it to kind of tell you that, okay, we can really help you on these particular areas because of the factors that you already know about, uh, in, in my, uh, kind of perspective, I think this is personalization. Uh, and personalization, I think no one is at the argument is, is the thing right now, you can't really escape, uh, and expect it to work out for you.

[00:12:59] And you're not really doing any personalization. Yeah. And there's also an argued to meant to be that some people feel that there's a, there's a, there's a line between too much personalization. Right. Like, you know, so how, how much personalization should be there and how much is too much. Yeah, I love that question.

[00:13:23] Uh, you know, uh, so I would say still the point that personalization is related to your product, it's definitely acceptable, right? So you have to. Straight. And I ended on personalization and then justify why you actually said that you shouldn't be saying that just because, and that's, that's, that's the key, that's the key right there, because not, not to just use it, but have a reason of why you're using it.

[00:13:45] Sales, hustlers. That's the big, important piece where a lot of people miss out, because a lot of times you see the type of messaging where there is some personalization and it looks like maybe they took, you know, two or three minutes to look at your LinkedIn profile and. Slap that into a template. They already have ready to go and it comes across as very disingenuous.

[00:14:05] So you got to actually have a reason of why you're using or saying that and not just throwing it in there to try to be different and make it look like you actually took time to do something personalized. Exactly. I mean, you need to stitch a story for me, right. Uh, in that message. So you need to tell me that because I did this.

[00:14:24] This is what I should do next. Right. So educate me then. What should I do? And Stitcher solely around the personalization that you've done. That's when it is impactful. If you just leave it there, I mean, you've done half of you. You've kind of, you know, it's just an office job, so you can't expect the results.

[00:14:39] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so we're talking about, and this messaging can be used when you're calling them when you're emailing them. When you're sending them a LinkedIn DM, you can use this on any channel. Um, now. What, what sort of, um, what do you think makes the biggest impact? Like, what is the biggest, what is the biggest impact that can be made by having this information?

[00:15:06] Like, what are you seeing companies that, or sales reps that didn't have this information and then go to having this type of information and have some knowledge around how to use it properly, which is the key. Yeah. Yeah. What does that, how impactful is that for them? Like what is it changing for them?

[00:15:26] Absolutely. So I think, uh, the one thing that most STRs have made peace with is the fact that the open rate will be around 40%. Uh, and it will be respective it respectable if it is 20%. And the response rate around eight to 10% will be super respectable. Right. Uh, I think this is what will change when you ask the core about doing smart prospecting with the right message with the right personalization.

[00:15:49] You would realize that your response rate could go as high as 25%, 30%, you would realize that your open rates could go as high as 75, 80%. Uh, and the reason why I'm saying that is because you have to realize that any person that you would beat him out would probably guess at least 25 other emails, very similar to, you know, the other emails that the world is sending up.

[00:16:09] You have an advantage of kind of listening to this podcast right now, but that many other donors, so they will still continue to do that. What they are doing. And what even you thought that yesterday's correct way to go about it, right? So if you stand out, it's not that people don't want to buy products or the bike is happy when colleges, you know, talk to any thought leader in the safe space, they will say coding works like chum.

[00:16:30] Coding still works, but why doesn't it work for everyone? The reason is that the level of effort that you've put into it and the kind of smart work that you've done before reaching out to this person, When you put it on there, but you stand up and you become that person that this guy wants to respond to.

[00:16:45] So you have to realize that your persona is already getting 25, 30 messages every day. And all of these are. You know, shit, you have to be that one message that will stand out and they'll be that matters for that day, for that particular, uh, you know, guy to respond to. And yeah, I use that word, but I was seeing that constantly behind you, so, yeah.

[00:17:04] Yeah. And here here's the, here's the thing that's interesting is I don't think of myself as a great copywriter. Like I don't, but I'm actually not that bad. At writing cold email because, and mainly it think it is from just receiving so much shitty emails, myself, that I could see what doesn't, I know what doesn't work.

[00:17:29] And when you bring some personalization and also humanize it a little bit. And what I mean by that is this. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't need to be it doesn't it shouldn't have, I have like a corporate stuffy feel to it. It can be lighthearted. It can be simple. I like to look at copy whether it's email, whether it's a script, whether it's a LinkedIn DM, whether it's a video prospecting video.

[00:17:57] I like to talk to people like just regular people, bring myself into it. Maybe make it a little bit funny, entertaining, catchy. Um, and you, you want to catch their attention? You know, I wrote, I wrote a cold email today and. Full transparency. It had no personalization, uh, but it stood out and I got replies right away.

[00:18:20] Um, and it was because it was actually, we were, we were crafting some copy to send out to, um, to, uh, uh, people in the insurance industry. And, um, we were going to bring a joke into the copy. And so I, you know, did my normal go to Google, look for, you know, a funny cheesy insurance joke and I couldn't find anything.

[00:18:42] Um, but I came across something that I found was. Kind of ridiculous. There's a store that I don't even know if this store still exists here, but it's like a big department store called JC penny. You know, I don't even know if they're around anymore, frankly, but they used to sell life insurance for some reason.

[00:19:00] And there was a joke around that. So. The copy looked like, Hey, I was looking for a cheesy joke to start out in this email. And I came across the fact that JC Penney sold life insurance, LOL that's the opening line of the email I, and the subject line says, JC penny sells life insurance question, Mark explanation, Mark.

[00:19:19] Um, and you know, the thing is the big thing is, is you've got to write less, the more you write. Yeah, the less likely that you're gonna get opened. And here's where I think. And here's where I think a lot of people say something that kind of irritates me. I don't care about your open rates. Open rates.

[00:19:40] Don't matter how many positive replies, how many meetings, how many deals in the pipeline? That's what matters. Stop celebrating because you got a 40 or 50% operator. Nobody cares. How many deals do you have? Yeah. True. True. Absolutely. In fact, for me, I'm out of anywhere, right? Well, for me, what matters the most is how much of that resulted in revenue?

[00:20:03] I mean, you could be a star in terms of setting up number of meetings or all of them are crap. Dude, I can't pay for a salary. Right. Because in the end revenue matters. How many of that got translated into revenue? Uh, so yeah, and you brought up very, very strong point, which is bringing humor and wit to your emails.

[00:20:20] I do that to my followups. So one follow up that works really well for me. Was a simple one-line thing. Then the aftereffects of Halloween, what we thinking, why are you ghosting on us and followed by an image of a cube post? And I got amazing responses. I sent it to everyone who had ghosted us, uh, you know, in the last two months on the next day following Halloween.

[00:20:43] And it was one night saying the aftereffects of how we, what we thinking, why are you focusing on us? And the response rates were amazing. So, you know, your ups should be simple one-line followups and they should add some humor to it. This is awesome. Some, some you went to it and you'll see your magic. Yes.

[00:20:58] Yeah, absolutely. All right. So now what, um, so let, let's talk about, um, let's talk about something, right? Because we talked a little bit about using this messaging in your calls, using this messaging in your. Emails, maybe in your LinkedIn DMS, but I think this is something that a lot of people are still missing the Mark on.

[00:21:23] And, um, what I want to talk about is video using video for your prospecting using video within your shells process. Is that something you guys are doing? How can you use the sort of data that you know, you guys have access to in your video? Prospecting? Yeah. Yeah. So we haven't yet started video prospecting.

[00:21:45] But what we have started is, you know, sharing pictures of us holding up, you know, five polls saying I'm not a robot, right. So when you ask them with personalization, you deserve attention. Right. And what we do is after we add personalization, once we've shared a couple of followups and we see someone has not responded to us, our next followup would be  with picture.

[00:22:07] With a play card that we're holding with the name of that person, uh, right. I says, Colin, I'm not a robot. And just holding it right here, just to prove that does not cause this is hyper-personalization and we sell to salespeople. So they resonate with that. And as soon as it goes, they know there's no play, there's no preach.

[00:22:23] They're not using any, you know, uh, mass meeting tools. You're not using anything. We're actually sending one to an inmate as a sky. And, and now, you know, The, the kind of property that has got, I just want to assist much more. I think we would work as like charm. It's just that we haven't started again for the same reasons that it just shows that you put in that effort and it just added a lot more human touch to it.

[00:22:45] So, yeah. I mean, if you can record videos, if you're good at it, I mean, you should definitely do it. I think my reps were more comfortable, you know, taking a picture than, than talking. So, you know, I was like, let's go with this then. Uh, if you're not comfortable with recording your videos, but I think if you can record, we use it.

[00:23:01] You're open. Uh, for that idea. I think that's just holding out viral. A lot of salespeople get shy at first to video and you're missing it. You're missing a huge opportunity and here's the reality. We all suck at video. When we first get started, we all suck. But, you know what? It makes a huge difference because it does bring that human element into, into the interaction a little bit more.

[00:23:27] It's a little bit more personable and especially, you know, using video early on in the sales process. Little bit more difficult. You got to really be good. You got to really have a structure around it, but using it, you know, mid to end of the sales process can be extremely effective, especially when you're in like that negotiation stage, where there may be like beating you up on price, or they're like, you know, asking you for more and not willing to give.

[00:23:53] Um, it works really well in those stages because you can get your point across. Um, it's a little bit more trusting and a lot of times things can get lost in words, you know? And would you rather read a three paragraph email of explaining why you can't do what they're wanting you to do? Or would you rather get your point across in a 92nd video?

[00:24:13] Yeah, no, that's absolutely, uh, you know, very powerful then I will say. And you made a very good point there. I mean, if the, if the message is going anywhere, you know, longer than one paragraph, then you better record a video to kind of push that message across because no one really reads two paragraphs. No one does.

[00:24:29] I mean, they will just skim through that message if you really want that person to actually read it. And if you think it's important, It's a no-brainer to send a video instead, and I think you'll stand up, right? The person who I respect probably he'll forward your video to their own sales rep and say, Hey, look at this.

[00:24:44] You might want to try this out as well. So, so for example, our, our takers get forwarded a lot. We see a lot of opens. We know that they have shared it with whatever, because we see a lot of hope ones when we, when we send that across, because they want to do that as well. So it's got the respect for you increases when you do something innovative when you do something creative, because.

[00:25:03] When you're reaching out to someone with that kind of approach and this guy, you know, haven't seen that ever, you would just expect you a lot more, uh, as I say this person, and, and I think it's very important that you build that respect and trust, uh, as a sales person, when you dealing with any prospect at any given point of time, as soon as you want to, you know, trust and respect, I think half the battle is won, uh, from there on, you're definitely going to be the age of your competitor.

[00:25:27] That's on the other side because this guy trusts you. This guy respects you. Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. So you got to keep pushing the limits, be creative, step out of your comfort zone, do things you're uncomfortable with try new things, be open. Um, you know, because you know, you can only do these things that stand out for so long before everybody else starts doing them.

[00:25:48] And then you got to think of something, then you gotta think of something else. Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah. I mean, I mean, if you're listening to this and you're not going and recording a video, I think you've just missed an opportunity. Right? I mean, You have to, because if you don't, then someone else will and it will become a thing.

[00:26:04] And then it's not as valuable. I mean, right now, how many you've been reduced to we get every day, I don't get more than one. And I mean, that means that there is so much more scope, right? Uh, for people to do that and still, you know, power, the other person. Uh, who's listening to that video. Don't do it as a first message, as you said, right?

[00:26:21] Because it's not worth it. What if this person doesn't even log into his LinkedIn, whatever it is, this person doesn't even open his emails, but do it at the second or third separate. And you know, this guy, actually the CRMs, but as you responded, this guy actually is connected to you on LinkedIn reads your messages, but doesn't want responding to you.

[00:26:37] So your second or third step should be overdue. I think it's a no-brainer I mean, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks so much for coming on today. Really appreciate the conversation. Tell the sales hustlers where they can find out more about you and what you have for them today. Absolutely. So I'm active on LinkedIn.

[00:26:57] Uh, I have some videos on YouTube as well called, uh, the running session. So social media, uh, the then saying you'll find me very quickly. You can search for rambling sessions, ban on duty appeal, find arming sessions. Lots of fine. Where, you know, I'm interviewing Colin, one of those running sessions. Apart from that, uh, I have a few blogs and things.

[00:27:15] The book's written I'll send a link to one of my eBooks, which is setting up a SCR team from the scratch in one 50 days. Uh, so I've shared all the secrets that we use to, you know, start from the scratch and build an SCR function that. They will only generate around 15 to 30 to 20 qualified opportunities for art internet.

[00:27:32] Uh, so all, all the learnings that we had in that journey are mentioned in that book. So I should. All right, fantastic. If you're listening to sales, hustlers, we will include all those in the show links for you. And if you're listening to the podcast, please subscribe, write us a review, share with your friends and we're listening for your feedback.

[00:27:50] Thank you for tuning in to this episode of sales hustle. Are you a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level? If the answer is yes, then I want you to go over to sales, check us out. And if you feel that you are ready, set up a time to talk with me and my co-founder Chris, I'm your host collum Mitchell.

[00:28:14] And if you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a review. And share the podcast with your friends.