Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Dec. 16, 2020

Episode #33 S1-EP33 More Conversations With Your Ideal Prospects with Josh Braun

Josh Braun joins Collin Mitchell in this episode of the Sales Hustle Podcast. Josh started as an elementary school teacher, and it turns out teaching and selling have many things in common. Some of the tactical sales stuff he shared is outbound.

Josh Braun is the Founder of Sales DNA. Sales DNA serves CEOs and VPs of Sales who want to increase cold outreach response rates and ultimately set more meetings.

Josh is also the host of the Inside Selling Podcast. Inside Selling is a Podcast about selling without selling your soul through the simple acts of caring, being curious, and making people smile.

You can access Josh Braun’s sales guide There are a series of plays that you can run and practice that is very helpful for sales folks.

If you’re listening to the Sales Hustle podcast, please subscribe, share, and we’re listening for your feedback. If you are a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level, please visit us at and set a time with Collin and co-founder Chris.

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Episode 33

Welcome to the sales hustle. The only no BS podcast, where we bring you the real raw uncut experiences from sales makers across various industries. The only place where you can get what you're looking for too. Uh, your sales game today's episode is brought to you by sales cast sales cast helps sales professionals transform the relationship building process and win their dream clients.

[00:00:30] I'm your host, Colin Mitchell. What is happening? Sales hustlers. Welcome to another episode of sales hustle. I've got a guest that I'm very excited to introduce to you today. I've got Josh Braun, um, and he is the founder of sales DNA. We're going to jump in and talk about outbound and see where it goes and have fun.

[00:00:52] Josh. Thanks for coming on today. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So tell people really quick, just a little bit about your story and how you got into sales. Um, for those that might not know who you are, and then we can jump into the tactical stuff. Are there people that don't know who I am? I'm kind of a big deal.

[00:01:10] Like, are there still people out there? All right. I'll tell people in case they don't know. So I started out as a former elementary school teacher. Right. And so the thing I was selling was reading and writing, and it turns out that teaching and selling have a lot of things in common because you have to get people to care about what you're saying.

[00:01:32] So they're inspired and motivated to want to learn more. So I now help people who are selling to different types of students or AKA prospects create red X messages that stand out in a sea of white circles. Um, okay, so let's, let's pull that apart a little bit. So, um, it's a different perspective on teaching, right?

[00:01:54] So do you think that, what, what do you think as a teacher? You know, what, why, why not continue teaching and why go into sales and kind of talk to me a little bit about that. Yeah. So I wanted to be a high school principal and through fate one day fell into a television career at Nickelodeon. Uh, studios where I was working on a show called Clarissa explains it all.

[00:02:20] When I say working on a show, I mean, I was cutting fruit for Melissa Joan Hart, the star of the show. Um, but even when I was on that show in between takes, um, I would find myself tutoring. The talent and I really enjoyed teaching. It was very fulfilling and what I learned pretty early on like any skill, um, explaining things in ways that get people to care and are inspired to learn more about is a skill and a domain.

[00:02:51] Um, if you've ever been to college, you might've experienced the professor who clearly knew the subject matter. But you just couldn't stay awake in the class. He sounded like Ben Stein, a Ferris Bueller's fame because he didn't know, or she didn't know how to teach in ways that inspire. And teaching is a skill explaining.

[00:03:09] Things is a skill. And so all I've done is I've applied. What I learned from teaching and I've applied that to cold outreach. Uh, so cold calls, writing emails, um, less about how people sell. And more about what inspires people to pay attention and keep paying attention. So a little bit of a different sort of perspective I bring to it.

[00:03:32] Yeah. Yeah. And I, I know that firsthand I've been through your course, a couple of times, myself, big fan, and you really focus more on the psychology behind it. And the, you know, using very specific words that makes people feel very safe and less guarded to get to the next step. So talk to me a little bit about the common mistakes.

[00:03:58] In cold, cold outreach, cold calling that you see why that doesn't work and then we'll take it from there. Yeah. The common mistake is that people start emailing. They get these really fast cars. Like they're called outreach and sales loft and reply, not IO. These things go like zero to a hundred. And I think like two seconds you can load in a bunch of leads, create these sequences.

[00:04:24] And it's fun, you know, stepping on the accelerator because it feels cool to like, do things really fast. Um, but everyone's missing the most important step, um, that I call the jobs framework. It's based on a framework called jobs to be done. Yep. Created by clay Christiansen. But I'll just take you through it real briefly, because I think it's really the fundamental thing that people don't have a handle on and therefore their messaging doesn't resonate.

[00:04:51] Um, and I usually like to tell it in the context of a, of a story, which is actually. True story. Um, several years ago I was in the mall with my wife. By the way, for all of you that don't know that are going through this pandemic, there used to be a time where you could walk around in a mall. It was this thing that was like a lot of stores.

[00:05:07] People all work walking close together as first for people that might not know. So I'm just killing some time. Yeah. My wife is shopping. I'm just roaming around and I happened to walk into a fit to run store. I didn't need anything. So Colin, if the store associates said to me, What brings you in today?

[00:05:26] What do you think? I would have said, ah, just browsing around. Chilling just came for my wife, just waiting for me. If she said, can I help you? What would I have? Oh, no, just I'm just browsing. Cause she said, you know, what problems bring in today? What would I have said no, nothing, nothing, no problems. She didn't do any of those things.

[00:05:46] She looked down noticed that I was wearing running sneakers. She said, Oh, are you a runner? I said, yeah. She said, What distance. And I said marathon, and she says, well, how are you training today? I go, I'm running three times a week doing some brick workouts, doing a long distance workout, doing some tempo runs.

[00:06:07] She goes, have you ever had a running gait test? I said, what's that? And moments later, and I have video of this and stills of this, you can see I'm on the treadmill and she pauses the frame. And she said, do you notice anything? I said, yeah, my feet look, walk wonky. She goes, yeah, that's called overpronation.

[00:06:26] And did you know that if you run into sneakers that are not made for pronated feet, you can get injured on long distance runs. And as an old Jewish man that scares the bejesus out of me, and four minutes later, I'm spending $120 on insults. The moral to the story is that your prospects are running in their sneakers today, too.

[00:06:48] Nobody's sitting around not getting the job done. That job never changes. I'm always going to want to run and do a marathon of some sort. Right. But what always is going to change is how I'm getting the job done today. And so this framework takes us through who's the person it's me. What's the job. You're trying to get done, trying to finish a marathon.

[00:07:10] What's the current way they're getting it done. Running in my book. Sneakers, doing tempo runs long distance runs and sprints. What sucks. That's a big one. What is it that I might not know? Well, what sucks is, and if you have pronated feet, He running for a long distance. You could get runners in these. You can get splints well.

[00:07:31] So what your hips will be sore hips that takes you and sidelines you and can prevent you from getting the job done. Finishing a marathon. What's better. These types of insults that keep you in alignment to reduce the risk of injury. So that's the framework that I run everybody through to make sure we have clarity on those four or five steps.

[00:07:54] Now, a lot of times people don't know the answers to those questions because they've never been a runner. So the hack for that, if you will. Is to cheat by looking in your case studies and customer success stories. Your marketing department has done this work for you. Now. You're not looking for marketing language.

[00:08:12] The litmus test is, is it a crispy and specific problem? So runners in the specific shin splints specific, getting sidelined specific. Can I observe the problem? Can I actually see it? Yeah. I could see someone getting cited and speak their language in a way that that's going to resonate with them. Sort of, but there's like a litmus test.

[00:08:34] So the litmus test that run the suck part through is can I observe it so I can observe optimization? I can observe runner's knee. I can observe getting sidelined. Like I can see it crystal clear in my head. I can see the picture. Is it specific? And does it sound like the language the person would say. If they were talking to you across the table, you're not going to be able to make that up.

[00:08:58] You got to lift that from a customer success story in a quote, and you got to fill out this grid and get very clear on it. And then, and only then can you start to use the framework for writing an email, but what happens is people they skip that step because it's not as much fun, uh, stepping on the gas.

[00:09:17] Um, and then the implication of that is really low response rates. So isn't this something that organizations should be doing for sellers and advance doing, doing these interviews, getting this feedback, creating this content as part of the training before they just put them on the phone and allow them to hit play on sequences.

[00:09:38] So it's not really about, so it's not really about creating content so much. It's on the, if a sales person's going to reach out, um, sales person has to know this. What I typically see is that everyone's well-intentioned as they throw these persona docs over the, to the reps, but the persona docs don't sound like they're they're from a customer's perspective, they're from a marketing perspective, this jobs framework that I take people through these four or five, you know, who is it?

[00:10:10] What's their title. What's the job they want to get done. How are they currently getting it done? What sucks about it? And what's better. That exercise is really enlightening and what you never see is the word optimize because it doesn't pass the test. Right. So we keep going back and refining it. Um, but yes, somebody has to do that.

[00:10:29] Whether it's the sales person or somebody else, I like the sales person doing it because it burns it in a little bit more. And we actually do it with a pencil. We actually write it in to the little sheet and we get clarity on it so that you can actually see the black and white version of the infomercial.

[00:10:43] He's in the kitchen with a knife, trying to make French fries. I could see them. It takes an hour and a half is slicing the fries and all different ways. That's the, that's how you have to see it. If you can't see it visually like a movie in your head, you're not there yet. You're saying end to end platform increase in conversion rates, all that stuff that you can't that's this nebulous generic stuff.

[00:11:08] You got to deeply put yourself in your customer's shoes and understand everyone says, everyone says that stuff. Yeah, that's true. But how do you do that? You just got to look at the customer success stories. They're all written the same way before and after. Like you, you have to get in there and find that language because if I'm an SDR and I'm selling to a CIO, how am I going to get myself in their shoes?

[00:11:30] I can't, I've never done the job. So just go read the customer success stories. That's where the gold is. Okay. And now once they've gone through this exercise, then what's next. How do they implement this into their messaging? Both phone and email. Okay. So we'll talk through that a little bit. Um, let's talk a little bit about another story.

[00:11:48] W w why did this back? Um, so this is, this is another, you're going to hear me tell these stories over and over again, because. As a teacher, I know that re repetition is what's going to burn this in. No, I love, I love that. You tell you, you, I love the analogies and the stories that you tell, because it, it helps really simplify it so that people can resonate and understand the point that you're making.

[00:12:14] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly it. And that's kind of like the sort of art of explanation, if you will, but, you know, look, I like washing my car on the weekends. And I buy my car wash supplies from this place called Adams polishes. And so I guess when I bought the stuff, I must have put my email address in and I was on their list for whatever reason.

[00:12:33] I'm, you know, so who's, who's the person to me, what's the job I want to get done and want to wash my car. What am I currently doing to wash my car, using a bucket, some suds and a sponge. Life was great until I got this email from Adams carwash polishes company. And this is the sentence that it said, Josh, what are you doing to ensure your car wash mat?

[00:13:00] Doesn't scratch your car. Now listen to this. What sucks part. This is what I didn't know and watch how clearly you're going to be able to see this in your head. This movie, let's zoom into the carwash bucket. We're going to take the camera underneath the water. And as you can see. There are these dirt particles.

[00:13:19] Some of them are pretty sharp. They're kind of floating around in the water. When you dipped your sponge in it, cut to sponge dipping in water, slow motion. We can see these particles getting on the sponge. And then when you take the sponge out of the water and you clean your car, you can scratch the hood.

[00:13:39] And if you're a nut job like me, That's a $600 trip to the body shop to get the front of the hood sprayed, not to mention the value of the car is diminished because when you go to sell it, they have a paint detector that can determine that the hood was sprayed. So one of the types of pain people want to avoid is things that that could happen.

[00:14:02] Risks. And I immediately then said, well, what's better. Cause now that I see this problem and it was intense, it was illuminated. He sells a bucket with like a great, and if you rub your sponge on the great, the dirt particles settled to the bottom of the bucket and off your car, and I bought it, the lesson here is that we have to be really good at writing these illumination questions.

[00:14:27] What are you doing to ensure. Your carwash mic doesn't scratch your car is not a leading question. It's not saying what if you had the greatest sponge in the world to clean your car? That's leading. What if I could teach you how to make $5,000 in two minutes? Like, where are you? What are you leading me toward?

[00:14:44] That's a leading question. These illumination questions are neutral. Josh, what are you doing to ensure you don't get injured on runs due to overprinted feet? Hmm. What do you mean. So the first step in this process is what's the angle. Like what's the illumination question. We can ask your prospects, that's going to get them to scratch their head and think w w what, what, like here's another one and the reason, and the reason behind those type of questions are to reach.

[00:15:15] The bigger amount of people, as you like to say, in, in, in the pain triangle. Right? Look, everyone's getting the job done today. So I have to have an, I have to know something that the prospect doesn't know that can help them avoid a problem or achieve a desired outcome. If I don't have that angle, like, what is it that you know, that they don't know?

[00:15:35] What does the pro, what does the prospect want that they don't have. Right now everyone talks about value propositions, but the reason that's flawed is that I'm already getting the job done. What is it that I don't know? I don't like to change people don't like to change hate it too, too risky. Lot of anxiety jobs talks about that a lot, you know, a jobs to be done for him or so you have to have a very clear understanding of what terrible.

[00:16:00] No. Good, very bad thing happens if they don't. If they stay with what they're doing, what's the risk that we can kind of float. Um, so that's really core to writing that first sentence. Um, you know, this was one of the day, but actually it goes on a toilet. This was kind of a fun one. So imagine there's a, they have these bad days that go on toilets, they snap on.

[00:16:22] Um, it says something like this. Um, if you got a chocolate stain on your clothes, would you wipe it off with a towel? Very clever sort of little analogy there. Like what is this per day thing? You know? So these, these, uh, these illumination questions are kind of core. And what you do then is you start your email off with that.

[00:16:46] That's kind of sentence one, you know, Josh, what are you doing to ensure your car wash mat? Doesn't scratch your car. And that's going to kind of get you thinking a little bit differently about how you're getting the job done today. No, I guess I can just, I can just picture you totally geeking out on it on every email that you get here.

[00:17:06] Yeah. It's tearing it down. And when they do a bad job than reaching out with an illuminating question right now, I try to help. But the other, the other thing too, with it is. In order to be a red X, your email also has to look different. Like if you look at your inbox today and you open up emails, you're going to see these long three, four paragraph emails.

[00:17:27] Right. And I don't know if you're like me, but whenever I see a lot, anything that's like three or four paragraphs, I kind of say like, I'll do that later and I never get to it. Don't just delete it right away. The reason for that, this is interesting. Now, the reason for that is

[00:17:43] Facebook messenger, texting. WhatsApp. These are very short, two, three seconds. Like you look at a text it's, you know, a couple sentences. So these emails that teaching people, the right, literally I call them emails that look like texts. They literally look like attacks. They're informal. They're literally three sentences, maybe four on a rare occasion, which we can talk about, uh, at a more advanced technique, but they're usually three sentences.

[00:18:12] They look casual. And because they look like a text and there's not a lot of reading and we make it easy for people to respond. They get this kind of like text reaction. Like I'll just, we'll just respond to that. But it starts with that illumination question. Okay. Let's talk about subject lines. How do you stand out with subject lines?

[00:18:30] Yeah, so we can not, we can talk about that. Or we could talk about the rest of the email, but you know, that, that sentence one of three, we can kind of go through that, but so subject lines, um, there's a couple of different. Things with subject lines. There's a, if you guys Google fascinations, that's a copywriting term used by the old great direct response copywriters that were used to create what they call open loops.

[00:18:57] I'll give you an example if you've ever watched anything on Netflix. Yeah. Like right now I'm watching Queens gambit or if you watch stranger things the last, like the last, like 30 seconds. They kind of leave you hanging and you want to like, w w w what's going to happen to this person and watch the next episode you want to find out what's going to be, Hey, I'm just going to watch another five minutes and then you've watched the whole episode, and then it happens again.

[00:19:20] And you're like, Oh yeah, Georgia, George Loewenstein, out of, uh, out of Carnegie calls, these information gaps. So brains. Want to close the gap between what they know and what they want to know. It's just like how people are wired. So these old direct response copywriters would do these things. They call them fascinations.

[00:19:40] One of the most famous ones was what never to eat on an airplane. So if you're like going to get on an airplane, you're kind of like, what am I not doing? Like the nightly news does this, well, there's something wrong with your P's news at 11. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm eating peas. What the hell is wrong with my piece?

[00:19:57] I got to tune into this thing to find out what happens. So kind of using this concept of open loops is really about creating. Curiosity and a little interest, by the way, we do the same thing on a cold call, but with regards to a subject line, some simple ones. Um, Josh opened to this question, Mark. Josh, crazy question, Mark.

[00:20:20] Josh, is this a ridiculous idea? Question Mark. Like I, I do kinda like names in subject lines. There's some data that show that when you use someone's name, but you can even do it without it. Um, if you have runner's knee, you can do something as simple as runners. New question Mark. Yeah. Um, so th th the substance, if it's going to peak their interest, almost like a question, um, create that curiosity, that's going to then lead them right into that illuminating question, which is your first line.

[00:20:50] Yeah. And the first line, they're not going to, they're going to see that in the preview. So when you open up an email, you see who it's from. You're already starting at a disadvantage because they don't know you. We can talk about this separately, but there's a better way to almost guarantee your response.

[00:21:08] And that is to have someone that that person knows, email them. On your behalf. That's not as difficult as it sounds. We talk about that in the guide, but we can talk about that on this, that there's a lot of easier ways to do this, but we're kind of going down the cold path. So this, the from is already going to put you at a disadvantage because they don't know you, but talking about a subject line and the first like hundred and seven characters of your email.

[00:21:30] Um, so we could talk a little bit about, about as well, but that's what they're going to see in the preview to kind of get there, to get the open. And, and, and just going back for a second, none of this can be done. Effectively without doing the jobs to be done. Yeah. Yeah. Once you, once you got kind of get good at the job stuff and you understand the customer, you kind of write these illumination questions, then you can go to like a level two.

[00:21:54] You can start to really do interesting things. Um, you know, for example, you can take a look at the person's profile that you're actually emailing. I'll give you an example. There was a, a person that was doing, uh, the company's called lean data and. What lean data solves is. Imagine you're a company and you get a bunch of inbound leads.

[00:22:18] And salespeople say, God, there's too many of them. I don't know which ones are good. Therefore I'm going to ignore them. And so marketing spends all this money. And then what sucks about that is the money is spent by marketing. And eventually the marketing director's boss says, where's all this money going, why are there no leads?

[00:22:33] And that marketing person gets fired. Lean data solves that problem by routing reps to Lee routing new leads to reps in under a minute, so they can create more up pipeline. So knowing that we know the job stuff. We prospected this woman, her name was Amanda, and we have the illumination question and we're like, can we make it even more enticing?

[00:22:55] And this is sort of the level two is we looked on her profile and in the about section, it said she was an amateur wine connoisseur. Sometimes you can't find these nuggets, which is why I teach the second, not first, but if you can find these nuggets, the key is can you tie it into the illumination question?

[00:23:13] So this is what the email sounded like, something like this, and I don't have it memorized, but Amanda, as an amateur wine connoisseur, Now, unlike, unlike an amateur heroes, Amanda, unlike an amateur wine kind of soar SDRs, can't smell the buttery aroma of a good inbound lead. Right? So buttery. So, so, so we help them sniff it out.

[00:23:37] Right? So that's a very enticing sentence. That's going to show up in the preview because she's an amateur wine connoisseur. Again, this is sort of level two stuff we teach about where to find these nuggets and then creatively. How to hook them in. Um, there was another gentleman that was into like snowboarding and, uh, pitching gong, you know, gangs or platform that helps sales managers.

[00:24:02] Right clone their best reps. And so, you know, unlike, you know, skiing down a mountain and having an avalanche, you don't know when your reps are about to wipe out on a call. Like these are very creative ways to kind of tie these things in. Um, it requires a little more creativity and a little more skill, um, which is why I typically will teach it as a.

[00:24:23] After we kind of go through some of these other principles and this is for more high quality or done in bulk before sending emails. I mean, this is like going, you know, more, more specific, personalized to the individual person rather than a persona. Yeah. I don't believe in golden bulk. Um, if you're sending more than 45 emails a day, you're probably doing it wrong.

[00:24:47] So I say 10 accounts. 10 to 12 accounts at a time, four to five people per account. If you're an, a M SDRs might be able to handle a little bit more once they get good at this. But if you're doing more than 45 or 50 emails a day, it's, it's probably, um, it's gonna probably come off the rails. Okay. All right.

[00:25:09] Let's, let's shift gears a little bit and let's talk about cold calls. We talked a lot about email let's shift gears, and let's talk a little bit about the framework of, of, of crafting this script, um, and, and how you teach folks to do that. Okay. So I'll do it the easy way. First. I'm going to cold call you.

[00:25:27] Let's pretend you don't know me at all. And you pick up the phone, just pick up. Hey Colin. My name is Josh with inside Corp. We've never met, but I'm sorry. My name is James with inside Corp. We've never met, but I know about you through Josh Braun. So I was hoping I could ask you just a couple quick questions.

[00:25:49] Yeah, sure. I have a few minutes now. Why would you say yes to that? Uh, I would say that because you. Well, first, your tone was, was calm. So, uh, you didn't sound nervous, you sounded confident also, um, you referenced somebody that I'm familiar with. Um, so then my guard went down and I wasn't defensive. Um, and you asked permission before proceeding?

[00:26:15] Yeah, the biggest there's a lot of reasons he had the biggest, the biggest one was when you, you pointed out very smartly, which is I dropped Josh Brown as a name. So, Hey, we've never met, but I'm familiar with your company through Josh Braun. I'm familiar with your company through some work that we did with ax, even if the connection's a little loose.

[00:26:39] Yeah. You don't want to lie. You don't want to say something that's not true. I'm familiar. I'm familiar with your company because one of our SDRs used to work there. And so I was hoping I could ask you a couple of quick questions. Anytime you can bring in some social connection into that first sentence, you're going to lower resistance.

[00:27:00] Yeah. Now I do realize that you can't always get that people. Like what is, if I can't find it, I would say given the tools today, work a little harder, you might be able to find some kind of connection. Um, but if you can't, I always have a fallback just like with the personalization stuff. Sometimes you just can't find something that's elegant.

[00:27:20] You force it. No problem. We default to. The relevant email, that's not personalized using the illumination questions. So just like this, another way to build the curiosity is, Hey calling you, I was listening to your podcasts. Hey, calm. We've never met. I was listening to your podcasts and found something interesting.

[00:27:42] I was hoping I could ask you a couple questions now. What'd you notice about what I did there? So you, you, you, you, you stated that we never met. So I know, okay. I don't have to feel like, Hey, is this a sales call? You know, what are you calling about? Um, you made it about me, um, which, which I have mixed mixed about because there's a lot of people that, you know, do quick research and it's not real genuine.

[00:28:11] Right. Because you could, and if you do that, you could get caught off guard. Oh, great. What episode did you enjoy? 32 and Josh Braun. He was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So it's assuming that they actually did some research and not just finding a little tidbit and, and then jumping the gun and using it. So, so it does take a little bit of time to be able to do that effectively, right?

[00:28:33] Yeah. Here's the thing, depending on the problem you solve. So let's say for instance for you. So one of the things column that I know that you want is reach. Just like I do. And the reason you want reach is that the more people that hear about you, the more ultimately money you make through an information product, like what I'm selling or through sponsorships.

[00:28:57] So reaches a currency. So I know that a guy like you is always going to be interested. In reach. So if I called and I saw that you had a podcast, but that you really weren't on Facebook, or you really were on LinkedIn or wearing around others, other places where I think I could repurpose your content and get you more reach.

[00:29:15] That's my what sucks hypothesis when I skim through your social and I skim through your podcast, if you said what episode, and if I didn't really listen to any episodes, I would be honest. And I would say Colin. Let me just stop this call. I'd say, Hey Colin. Now I skimmed through your episodes. The one that I really thought was interesting was this one, but truth be told I didn't take a deep dive.

[00:29:47] Do you want to hang up on me for not doing my proper researcher? Can I ask you a couple questions again? I'm going to be honest. I skimmed through a couple. Um, um, I'm kinda new at this. Mass. I don't like cold calling. You probably don't like getting it either. I am kind of, I'm not spending an hour on your podcast, but I just skim through things and I just found something a little interesting.

[00:30:06] And I was hoping I could ask you a couple of quick questions, but no problem either way. I know I'm totally interrupting. You would have. Nope, no problem. If you want to get off the phone, no biggie. That's kind of, that's kinda how I would just kind of be brutally honest. Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. And I think that for some reps reaching out, they might not, they might have a plan in mind of how the call's going to go and then they can get a little bit caught up when it doesn't maybe go as planned.

[00:30:35] I think I have a great point that the whole cold calling that I teach starts with intent. Where calls come off. The rails is when your intent in making a call is to book a meeting. I know that sounds a little counterintuitive, but when your intent is to book a meeting, you end up saying things and in sounding in ways that actually sound very pushy because you're trained from a young age to get things, get on the Dean's list.

[00:31:06] Get straight A's. Get to be first, get to the top, get 50 emails, book, 50 calls and book this demo. And so when you bring that, get mentality in your vote, your voice changes, your tonality changes and prospects can sense the push. And when prospect sends the push, they pull away. So I teach a different intent is to let go of that.

[00:31:31] And instead, just focus on getting to the truth. Behind every conversation you have with a prospect, which is one of two things. Yes. They'd like to continue the conversation and share a little bit more or no, they don't at this time, which is okay too. And when you create an environment of trust, you believe it or not spend less time chasing you feel better.

[00:32:00] And ultimately you end up making more sales anyway. So this intent is extremely important. Getting into that mindset of having the right intent. We spent quite a bit of time on that, um, before we actually make the call. So that's, that's kind of part one of the call, which is, can you reference something socially?

[00:32:17] Um, another way to open the call. That's kind of fun. Some people really like is to use a Christopher Voss accusation audit. Uh, Christopher Voss is the author of never split the difference. FBI negotiator and an accusation audit is labeling the negative emotion. The other person's thinking. So I got a couple of recorded calls as we can.

[00:32:38] We can talk about them offline and let you listen to one. But essentially it goes like this. Uh, you pick up the phone and the SDR says, Colin, you're probably going to hate me, cause this is a cold call. Right. Would you like to hang up or can I ask you a question? So that, that kind of, uh, you know, approach where you're labeling the negative emotion, the person's feeling, those are three different ways that I like to open a call.

[00:33:00] And the reason I teach three ways is because there, isn't a way, there's a way that feels good for you and like anything in sales. And there's no like magic bullet, but what works well for one person might not feel good for the other person. So you pick among these three buckets. Um, and you choose the one that you liked the best, but they all have to lead with a question being asked at the end, meaning I always want to say, would it be okay if I ask you a couple questions, because what I don't want to do is go into my value proposition.

[00:33:33] I want to save that to the end of the cold call, because when I pitched too quickly, the prospect's going to feel the push. So I'd say Colin, you're, you're, you're producing a tremendous amount of podcasts. Like, how are you doing that? Are you, do you have like an outside editor? Are you using like audacity or are you doing it yourself?

[00:33:51] Like what's going on with that? Right? That would be the first question I would ask. How are they getting the job done today? And you're, you're making it about them, but you're also collecting good information in my mind is what I'm thinking in my mind. This is what I'm thinking. I'm trying to be curious without having an agenda.

[00:34:11] Like, if you say to me, I'm doing all these things, we're amplifying, or we're doing all this stuff, I'm like, Oh, awesome. It doesn't sound like we can really help you, but thanks for your time. Like, I'm perfectly okay with a call-out come like that. So I'm curious, and I'm not doing it with an agenda.

[00:34:30] So having very little or no expectations, uh, indifferent to the outcome, literally I'm indifferent to the outcome. Which is why you'll typically, if you've ever listened to me cold call. Oh, I sound pretty chill and relaxed. Yeah. Because yeah, I'm okay too. I also understand because of the negative rap that salespeople have, you know, maybe this person's been called 50 times and I've had some really bad experiences.

[00:35:02] It's a big hurdle that I might not be able to overcome. And so we have to just understand that as a profession, we've dug ourselves a pretty deep hole. And so the idea here is to, is can we make, can we shift the call a little bit from us pushing to us pulling and letting the prospect ask us questions?

[00:35:25] Because at a certain point in this call, as it goes on, the third part of it is I'm going to ask you an illumination question. I'm going to say, Hey, Colin, what do you get? What are you doing to get your content? Into the hands of people that are not listening to your podcast. And you might say something like, well, what do you, what do you, what do you mean by that?

[00:35:43] Now you're asking me a question and it's different now. And now we're deep into the call. And then I might say, well, we, uh, work with podcast hosts like X and Z, and we take their content and we get it in front of other people that you want to get in front of it that are not on your podcast. And you're going to say, well, how do I notice I'm not giving you the whole answer.

[00:36:06] I'm kind of leaving me with a cliff thing. Well, how do you do that? We'd love to show you. Um, would you be opposed? Would you be open to carving out some time over the next week or two? So we can show you how we're doing that for some other people. Yeah. So it's a very different kind of a cold call where I'm not pushing them.

[00:36:23] I'm sort of pulling information out and I'm being curious along the way. And of course, you're going to get the usual objections, which you, you know, you diffuse as they come up. So you're, you're, you're, you're posing a lot of questions, uh, out of curiosity. Um, and then you're using the illuminating questions to spark their interest, to ask you questions, which basically then gives you the permission to pitch or present with asking if they're opposed to learning more about that.

[00:36:53] That's from the meeting, which is ultimately your goal. Yeah. I mean, another, another great question you can ask on the call is like you say, yeah, I'm doing it. I'm doing it manually. I'm editing all this stuff myself. Um, how's that going for you? Yeah, it's horrible. I hate it takes too much time or not, or not, or not, you know, um, you know, w what we do, uh, we're helping some other, you know, other podcast hosts are using us to get polished episodes back with show notes in 24 hours.

[00:37:27] And if I just shut my mouth after that, You might say what? After we've had this, how are you doing that? Right after you've been talking like, after we've had the, see, this is the thing. When I watched Howard stern love him or hate him. I'm not a huge fan, but I love when he interviews people. One of the things I noticed when I was listening to his interviews is he doesn't get to the good stuff until like an hour in.

[00:37:54] He, he peels the onion back slowly. It's when they come in all you look great. This is kind of surface level questions, but after like 40 minutes, He started asking the harder questions. Why do you think he back in loads? It, why do you think he doesn't just go in and ask him those questions in the first five minutes, he's letting them get comfortable.

[00:38:11] He's building rapport. They're less guarded. You know, if he asked those hard questions in the very beginning, he's likely not going to get a great response, not get an honest response. There's a lot of ways that it could go bad. Perfect observation, simply with the cold call and yet most cold calls. Can I have 27 seconds say wacko, we help X do Y you got your calendar.

[00:38:34] It's the equivalent of going for those hard stern questions in the beginning. So what I'm trying to do is just create an environment of trust, where people feel like I'm curious where I'm not assumptive, where they're then asking me, like, what is this about? Like, what do you, what do you do? I mean, I'm not sure it's a fit, but, um, other podcast hosts are using us.

[00:38:58] To get polished episodes back was show notes within 24 hours. Yeah. And I wanna, I wanna touch on something else that you brought up too. Let's talk about tone a little bit, right? Because something that, you know, I've listened to a lot of your calls, I've gone through your course and you're always like calm as a cucumber, right?

[00:39:18] Like how big of a difference does that mean? It's everything. And the only way you get there is if you detach. And you have this abundance mindset and you are focused on the truth of every conversation, which is yes. They'd like to continue or no, they don't at this time. And you're cool either way, because you have this abundance mindset when you don't have an abundance mindset that meaning if you're not prospecting, you're not sharpening that ax.

[00:39:48] Right. You've got one opportunity in the pipeline that's going to make or break your year. It's going to be really difficult for you to detach. I mean, John, at for your, or you're making a lot of mistakes and not getting enough people that are willing to have a conversation. So when you finally get somebody that's willing to talk, you rush, you talk fast, you're nervous and you're out of practice.

[00:40:07] It's true. I mean, uh, That's it. That's right. That's spot on. I mean, John Burroughs, who I met, I want to say 10 years ago before I was even in this game, I was watching him speak and I was, I cornered him after his talk and I was bitching about something. This prospect is this prospect, that person that get back to me and he was very patient and I'll never forget this.

[00:40:26] He looked at me, he goes, you know what, fixes that a big fat pipeline. Like if you just were better. At starting conversations, you had more, everything's going to be, everything's fine because you only have these two you're stressed out. And I really took that to heart. Like 10 years ago, I'm like, he's right.

[00:40:47] I looked at my pipeline like kind of only have two. You got to get to a place where one or two meetings or one or two deals don't make or break you. Um, and then you can be in that mindset. It's like, Hey, I'm here to help if you want it. I can, if you don't, I don't care because there's a lot of people that want me and it's not, it's not there.

[00:41:06] Um, so if you say like I'm here to help, that is assuming that you can help. It's also possible. That people are making adequate progress when you reach out. I mean, I talk about this all the time. I have a pixel out on my TV in the back bedroom. It's a problem, but I barely watch that TV. And when I do, I rarely notice the pixel.

[00:41:27] So I'm not fixing it now because I have limited resources. So to use out of your prospects. So it's assumptive to think that you can call and help people you might be able to, but you also don't want to assume that. You want to assume that when you're reaching out, you do have a hypothesis of how you might like the words might and potentially, because words carry a lot of meaning.

[00:41:47] When you say, I want to reach out to show how I can help that's there, there goes that assumptive, you can almost feel, it can almost feel that the assumption, you know, I have a hypothesis. We've helped some people like this. I have no idea what's going on in this person's world. Have no clue what else is on their plate.

[00:42:04] I'm going to call to see if they're open to discussing an opportunity around this particular problem, and we've helped some other people with. So having that mindset going in is going to make a big difference on the language that you use in the conversation. Huge, huge, huge difference. And it also on how you also want, how you diffuse objections.

[00:42:27] Hmm, Josh. It's been amazing. Uh, we've uh, gone over time a little bit, but there's just so many great nuggets in here. Really appreciate you coming on the show, let folks know where they can find out more about you, your podcast, or anything else that you want to include that we will drop in the show notes for them.

[00:42:46] Yeah. Josh bad-ass. Is the guide that I sell. It's not really a course. You don't go through it. Linearly. It's a series of plays that you can run to. Make you less salesy, manipulative and gross so that you can start more conversations maybe with people you want to get in front of.

[00:43:11] All right. Sales hustlers. There you go. We'll drop the link in the show comments. If you're listening to the podcast, go ahead and feel free to write us a review, share with your friends and we're listening for your feedback. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of sales hustle. Are you a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level?

[00:43:30] If the answer is yes, then I want you to go over to sales, check us out. And if you feel that you are ready, set up a time to talk with me and my co-founder Chris, I'm your host, Colin Mitchell. And if you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a review. And share the podcast with your friends.