Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Oct. 5, 2020

Episode #2 S1-EP2 Helping you crack the code on outbound sales with James Bawden

This pilot episode of Sales Hustle tackles how outbound sales is vital in business, and how it impacts in the entire sales process. This episode also talks how sales artists still have jittery excitement doing cold calling as part of their sales journey. Join me with my special guest, James Bawden, Director of OutboundView and founder of The Lunch Break Media Group as we crack the code in outbound sales from cold calling, emailing, discovery calls, etc.

James' first sales gig was working for AT&T kiosk at a mall back in 2008. He was doing commission based work for a couple of years until he decided to switch to B2B sales selling paper. 

Throughout the years, James had enough experience learning from managers and people he met during his journey, acquiring skills, and turning his sales story into a venue that can help other people. 

James had tackled a lot of areas in sales, but for this episode, he has outlined the essentials of outbound sales and how important this is.

If you’re listening to the Sales Hustle podcast, please subscribe, share, and we’re listening for your feedback. If you are a sales professional looking to take your sales career to the next level, please visit us at and set a time with Collin and co-founder Chris.

Join Our Sales Motivational SMS list by texting Hustle to 424-378-6966. Please make sure to rate and review the show on Apple. 

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Episode #2 S1-EP2 Helping you crack the code on outbound sales with James Bawden

Collin Mitchell: Welcome to the sales hustle. The only no BS podcast, where we bring you the real raw uncut experiences from sales change makers across various industries. The only place where you can get what you're looking for to up your sales game today's episode is brought to you by sales cast sales cast helps sales professionals transform the relationship building process and win their dream.

[00:00:29] Clients. I'm your host, Colin Mitchell. All right. On today's episode, I've got James , who is the director, a rector of outbound view and founder of the lunch break media group. I'm super excited to dig into, uh, what you guys are doing at outbound view and talk about everything sales and your sales journey.

[00:00:52] So let's jump right in. Tell folks a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your sales journey thus far. 

[00:01:00] James Bowden: Oh, man, it's been, it's been a journey for sure. And Colin, I, I want to say thank you for giving me the opportunity to join you today. Always excited to talk sales and geek out about sales. So, uh, for me, uh, I started in sales now 12 years ago.

[00:01:17] Uh, I went to a two year audio, uh, full sale type school. So I was done. And with college at 21, it was also 2008. Which was a fantastic time to graduate college and enter into the real world. So I quickly found all of my little internships and all these little things that I had set up at the beginning of the year.

[00:01:42] Go away. Uh, by the summer. And during that time as well, some personal things happen. My mom, who I was living with at the time passed away suddenly. So my life was like turned upside down. Right. Um, by the summer of 2008, I had no clue what I was going to do. Uh, you know, I have now had to support myself. I had to do, you know, all this stuff was going on and I was lucky in many ways.

[00:02:07] Right. I was not cast out into the streets by any means. Right. I mean, thank God my mom had life insurance and things like that, but, you know, my, my life was much different than I thought it was going to be. Right. I thought it was going to live at home and do some audio internships. Um, and so like many people.

[00:02:25] Well, I just 

[00:02:26] Collin Mitchell: was clueless 

[00:02:27] James Bowden: about, because I didn't go to a four year college. I didn't have a great network. I had no clue how to go get a job other than like looking in the classifieds. This is when you still looked in the classifieds and walking around and like driving around Raleigh where I live looking, who's hiring, trying to find who's hiring.

[00:02:49] I mean, that's what I knew, which at that 

[00:02:50] Collin Mitchell: time literally was not a lot of people. Right. 

[00:02:54] James Bowden: Oh, no, no. I mean, it was a horrible time and, and, you know, I also had no clue about that. Right. I was a college kid. I wasn't paying attention to what was going on. It was like, why isn't anybody hiring me? I have no clue.

[00:03:06] So I was walking through the mall. I saw that radio shack was hiring. I was like, Hmm. All right. Well, radio shack. Maybe I could use a little bit of what I went to school for that would make me feel better about myself. And at the time I had been a camp counselor, like an afterschool care camp counselor in college.

[00:03:24] So I was still doing that part time, started working at radio shack part time. That was the only thing that was available. And that was my first, I guess, sales Jocko. Right. Um, from, and you know, completely no plan to working there full time work there for about a year, obviously was not happy about what I was doing.

[00:03:50] I wasn't jazzed up to be there. I wasn't excited to go into work everyday, but. I met while I was working there. I met somebody who worked at the Verizon kiosk down the hall, you know, down the way. And he just put some game on me. Right. I mean, he was just like, look, if you're going to be here doing this thing, working retail, working at the mall, or you go do something where you can make some money.

[00:04:15] Right. And so he kind of opened me up to the idea of a sales job. That was a real sales job where you could earn some commission. And so. That led to me working at the, at T and T kiosk in the same mall. Um, so that was my first kind of real commission based sales job. Um, I worked in retail for the next five years in the wireless game where sold cell phones for pretty much every major carrier.

[00:04:44] And then I got tired of not knowing what a weekend was like. Um, and the retail schedule being super brutal and the culture being less than ideal. I learned a time. Yeah, definitely cut my teeth, but I was ready for that next stage. So I got into B2B sales. Luckily somebody I knew got me a job at a paper company selling paper to.

[00:05:07] Car dealerships. Wow. And that was my first foray in inside 

[00:05:11] Collin Mitchell: sales. 

[00:05:12] James Bowden: Get some others let's yeah, I can pause there. 

[00:05:15] Collin Mitchell: Let's back up for a second. I just want to, before we get too far along. All right. So, I mean, 2008, you graduate your mom pass away. That's I mean, that's just like turn your world upside down. So I can't even imagine the emotions going on at that time.

[00:05:29] Really just trying to figure out. What am I going to do? You know, this is not what I expected. And, and then, you know, landing into retail sales and, uh, you know, a lot of people in something you said that kind of stood out to me. Right. And I find this as common. A lot of people are actually doing sales before they actually get their sales job.

[00:05:49] They just don't realize it. Right. So something that stood out to me, as you said, you're a camp counselor, right? So you're. Yeah, camp counselor. You're not selling, you're not making commission, but you are selling kids on following the rules or doing the next activity or doing things a certain way. Right.

[00:06:04] So you're already dealing with like that psychological part of sales, of motivating people to do things, um, just maybe not getting paid in the way that you should for that skill. 

[00:06:17] James Bowden: Um, For sure. 

[00:06:19] Collin Mitchell: So, and, uh, okay. So then you, and then you go into to B2B sales, um, and you selling paper. I mean, I started out selling, uh, printer, printer cartridges, so we of, you know, I understand 

[00:06:31] James Bowden: the 

[00:06:32] Collin Mitchell: struggle.

[00:06:33] Right. Um, and you know, and, and, and that first job sales job, like literally we had. I wouldn't even call it a CRM. I don't know what it was. It was a database that didn't work. And we had a script that was horrible and a list of names 

[00:06:49] James Bowden: and a phone. And 

[00:06:50] Collin Mitchell: that was pretty much the training. Um, so tell me, I'm, I'm keen to hear a little bit like, you know, what was your, what was the training for selling paper?

[00:07:00] James Bowden: Very similar half a CRM. Uh, you know, the one thing though that I had, I was lucky key because the VP of sales that was working there, he was as a young guy, it was actually a company based in Virginia. And they had moved to a set that basically this office in Raleigh was just going to be their sales office.

[00:07:22] And it was this new team that they were building out. And he was this young, very ambitious. He was like the top sales guy at the company ever. Right. That story. Right. So he was super. Motivated and tried very hard, hard to get people, uh, on the right track. And we had half a CRM, but that was really because we just couldn't afford a whole CRM.

[00:07:43] Right. And we had a lot of roadblocks just being a very small business and a growing one at that. But the, the intention was right. So what we didn't have in the CRM and what we lacked in a good script and some looking back at it now. Yeah. You know, laughable attempts at enablement. I mean, some of the intention was 

[00:08:06] Collin Mitchell: one of those things.

[00:08:06] Like the lack of technology, right. Can actually be a benefit because the organization is really 

[00:08:13] James Bowden: driven by sales 

[00:08:15] Collin Mitchell: there's little or no, or not very good marketing 

[00:08:21] James Bowden: or 

[00:08:22] Collin Mitchell: efficiency, 

[00:08:23] James Bowden: just. 

[00:08:23] Collin Mitchell: The group for sales, right? Um, like smile, cold calls. 

[00:08:29] James Bowden: Yeah. I mean, try and close them on buying a case of paper. The first time you speak with them type thing, right.

[00:08:37] In your 

[00:08:38] Collin Mitchell: face, you don't want to sell a case. You want to sell a pallet, right? 

[00:08:43] James Bowden: Yeah. Well, and it was an interesting. A job in a lot of ways. I mean, I was a full cycle inside sales rep. So when I did sell a pallet, it was managing the transportation and making sure it showed up and nothing ever showed up. All right.

[00:08:59] The customer success afterwards. And for us, it was car dealerships. So you, you win one and then you want to win the rest of the group. Right. I mean, and that's really how you, the whole reason we were doing it. So it was a great. Masterclass and low tech inside full cycle sales. Right? I mean, um, and for me within a cup, you know, six or eight months, um, was asked to.

[00:09:23] Be a manager there. And so that was cool, right? I mean, definitely, uh, you know, just flying by the seat of my pants, but, um, raise my hand and was willing to do it. I spent the next year there helping them build out a team and very similar to what happened to me at radio shack. Somebody that I worked with there.

[00:09:46] Pulled me aside and was like, Hey, if you're going to work in inside sales, you should go work over here at this company, this recruiting company. I used to work there. I still know people that work there. They're making, you know, 400, 500 K a year. And so I did some research. I did some checking out and everything he said checked out.

[00:10:07] And so. I put the feelers out, went through the inter interview process, crazy seven interview, two day interview process, like 4% of people that get interviewed, get high. Right. Um, but I made it, I got there. And so I was all of a sudden, a physician recruiter. Calling gastroenterologist to get them to book jobs at remote areas of the United States.

[00:10:37] It was 

[00:10:38] Collin Mitchell: a little more than selling paper. 

[00:10:41] James Bowden: Yes. And it was a complete for me at the time, two years, two and a half years into my inside sales career, a complete money move. Like I'm going here to make money. I don't care what I'm doing. I'll learn it. I'll figure it out. No passion behind it. Nothing. I lasted 10 months.

[00:11:02] Right. Never made more than base salary sat right next to a guy that had worked there for 10 years and was making half a million dollars a year in ordering the Sadie's Benz is on the phone. But I was very far away from that level. Right. Learned a lot, had a great. Manager that totally knew I wasn't right for the gig and totally helped me make a graceful exit.

[00:11:24] But, uh, that led me to my first sales development job. And that's really where I feel like it turned. I kind of turned the corner in my, uh, B2B career. I've spent the last four years in sales development and building out teams and now working at outbound view, it's a culmination of everything I've ever done.

[00:11:44] Right? And it's, I'm working with a team of really, really smart and talented inside sales pros that just have been doing it for a long time and know the nuances. And we're building a lot of cool tools. We're going to, with a lot of fantastic time, 

[00:11:59] Collin Mitchell: we're going to dig into that stuff. Because that's the stuff we want to talk about, but before we do, for sure.

[00:12:03] Yeah. Um, I want to back up just a second. So what do you think some of, you know, a couple of things, right? So you talked about, you got into sales in 2008. I think that, you know, the financial situation of the current times, you know, we're looking at kind of a similar situation. People are laying people off 

[00:12:18] James Bowden: very similar

[00:12:20] Collin Mitchell: You know, sales is what drives revenue for companies. So there's always going to be sales jobs, right? So there's a lot of people that maybe you're just getting into sales, or maybe you're going to land in sales or fall into sales. It was, there's a lot of people like to say, because that's the jobs that are going to be available.

[00:12:37] Um, what would you tell folks that are, you know, kind of in that place, similar to yourself in 2008? 

[00:12:44] James Bowden: Yeah. I think folks like myself that graduated college and got into the working world and got into sales around that time, have a unique perspective because I understand and can see, I was always told this, but now I've been able to see it.

[00:12:58] These things happen every 10 years. Every 10 to 15 years, we're going to see some sort of thing happen that. Makes things tough. Starting your sales career during one of those and learning how to maneuver through it. I mean, it wasn't pretty for me. I wasn't making a lot of money. I was, I mean, on food stamps, uh, at a certain point, I mean it not glamorous at all, but I always had a job.

[00:13:24] I was never unemployed. I was never unemployed. Since I started in sales. I've never been unemployed for more than maybe a month. Right. I mean that, and that's not something that everybody in every profession can say. So my perspective on this is, look, if you're starting out now, it's going to be a grind.

[00:13:43] You grind right through it. But think about being in a way different, like how can you put yourself in a position to be ready for it? In the next 10 years. And that's what I was thinking about last, you know, when I was going through and it was like, okay, what moves do I need to make over the next five to seven years to make sure that when this thing comes back around in 10 years, I'm not.

[00:14:08] Working for, you know, X amount of hour, you know, dollars an hour and scraping to get by. And this they mentality now, right? I'm in a different position than I was during the last downturn. And how do I make sure that I'm even more insulated from, uh, Any, you know, being as effective as I could be. Yeah. And that's all through sales, right?

[00:14:28] That's all through the different sales jobs and growing in your career. So I think you have a unique opportunity to learn how to grind through a really tough time and then feel really confident about your ability to like, be very prepared for the next one and put yourself consciously and intentionally in positions where all right, I'm not going to have to worry about this next time.

[00:14:49] It sucks now. But I won't necessarily 

[00:14:51] Collin Mitchell: know. I have another quick follow up question to that. So, and I know from my own personal experience, right? So, you know, being in the type of sales that you were in, like, let's go back to the selling paper, right? That full cycle sales rep, brute force selling good old fashion, hard work, low tech, um, you know, type of sales rule.

[00:15:11] What do you think some of the things that you obtained well in that role that have molded you as a sales person throughout your career? 

[00:15:21] James Bowden: The the, it was absolutely, I was fortunate. I was working with people who weren't new at, at inside sales. So they were seeing the things that I was doing. We were all sitting together bolt and no barriers.

[00:15:36] It was, everybody heard everybody, it was purpose. Um, and so they would. And I hated it at the time, but they would pull me aside and say, look, you sound way too nervous. So like a lot of the things that I learned there were about just your demeanor on the phone, the importance of just taking a breath. Not, it's not a big deal.

[00:15:58] Yeah. You get, you get to hang up there. Yeah. Poof gone when you hang up, right? Not to take yourself so seriously. So a lot about mindset learned a ton about mindset. Learn a ton about, Hey, just because you had a bad day yesterday doesn't mean today's going to be bad. And just because you had a good day yesterday doesn't mean tomorrow is going to be good.

[00:16:17] That whole equation that you have to kind of understand and, and wrap your mind around. So it was a great foundational thing for me to then go on and work in jobs where the phone's been 

[00:16:28] Collin Mitchell: just such a critical part of success. No, I couldn't agree more. I mean, my, my experience was similar to that, right.

[00:16:35] Like I learned a lot of, I learned some bad habits cause they're more of like the old fashioned ways of selling where it's like, Hey, you don't really care about people much, but you care about your commission. And it's it's it's really just, Hey, you got an offer. And if they don't, you know, if they don't buy, if you don't close them, you throw out another offer.

[00:16:52] If they don't buy, then you change the subject and then you 

[00:16:55] James Bowden: throw out another offer. 

[00:16:56] Collin Mitchell: And if they don't buy, then you get a commitment for a future order. Right. That was really, that was the script at the time. Right. Which, you know, um, but the things that I did learn were very similar to yours is that mindset of like, not taking things so seriously, like, you know, There's some things that still stick with me today was like, you know, Hey, some will some won't next call, you know?

[00:17:17] And it really taught me to like, not take it so seriously, cause you're going to get way more than that than yeses. And the sooner that you realize that, and you don't let it affect your emotional state or your mindset, you can just trudge forward and really continue on. Um, without letting that discourage you.

[00:17:37] Um, so things like that, that really stuck with me similar to your experience. So now I want to dig into a little bit more, you know, Current time. Right? So, um, what are you seeing, you know, what have you seen change in sales? There's a lot of, there's a lot of people, people that are really on board with this more, you know, authentic selling this really, you know, having empathy more, you know, really putting people first over profit, which is a bit of a, which is a bit of it transition, right?

[00:18:04] That's not how the old dogs did it. That's not 

[00:18:06] James Bowden: how you and I were taught. Um, but that's 

[00:18:09] Collin Mitchell: what seems to be working more and there's just more and more ship people shifting to that way of selling. So I'd like to see what your thoughts are on that. And then talk a little bit about, you know, the tech that people are using and what you're seeing and things like that.

[00:18:22] James Bowden: Yeah. You know, I think there's two levels to it. Um, on the very tactical approach side, empathy, compassion, not having commission breath. Those are all. I mean, those are all things good salespeople have been doing forever. Let's be honest. That's nothing new. If you go back and really listen to folks like Zig Ziglar, um, you know, these classic or even read books, then, you know, 1920s, some of these core things about really providing value for your customer and caring about your customer.

[00:18:58] They've always been then said, so great salespeople have always been doing it. I think what's changed is the leadership. And the way that we think about and want to be seen as salespeople, it started with the internet. Because at one point, salespeople were the holders of all knowledge. And so that gave us a platform to stand on and allowed us to use those powers for evil much more often than we even have the opportunity to now.

[00:19:26] I mean, a sales person can't lie today. If you lie, they'll go Google it and figure out that it's a lie. So we're all, we've almost been forced with technology to become more transparent and become more human to human focused. I think it's fantastic. But, 

[00:19:42] Collin Mitchell: but do you think it's also like part of the evolution of a sales person, right?

[00:19:46] Like. Take for example, somebody like me or you, right. Who just fall into sales because frankly for me, it was the only job that I could get or the only people that were willing to give me an opportunity. I didn't go to college. I barely made it through high school to be honest and sales. Was it like, what else was I going to do is either that, or make minimum wage and you know, then you start to get a little bit of success 

[00:20:08] James Bowden: and then you do acquire that.

[00:20:10] Collin Mitchell: Commission breadth where it's just like the first time you're getting a little bit of taste of money and you start to acquire little, small, bad habits or a little, you know, willingness to compromise to get that sale. And, you know, it creates this monster, right? And then at some point you're like, Hey, this is not, this is not authentic.

[00:20:27] This is not who I am. This is not, this is not making me feel good. And you kind of transitioned to more of that sales professional than that sales. Maybe slime ball. 

[00:20:38] James Bowden: Yeah. It's I had an interesting experience because during those phases early in my career, when I was being taught those types of things and I was kind of conducting myself that way, I wasn't making a lot of money.

[00:20:52] Right. I mean, it wasn't necessarily garnering me massive paychecks. I mean, I was doing well. In the realm of making $8 an hour and selling cell phones. But, you know, when I moved into the B2B world was kind of the time where I started doing more personal develop individually, um, and reading more books and just kinda learning more holistically about what a successful professional business to business sales person is like.

[00:21:18] And, uh, you know, I found that the more. The more I got away from, uh, how can and I make money off this person and how can I help this person? I made more money. Right. And so for me, it was, that's always been, actually tied very closely together in my career. Like as soon as I made that flip mentally. It was like, Oh, okay.

[00:21:41] Got it. Understand now because I'm not always so worried about my money and it's not a point of stress and I'm not forcing things to happen. I'm doing the right things for the right reasons and it, and it seems to be working out. I think that that was a lesson that was very helpful for me. Um, and something that I think a lot of people deal with.

[00:22:00] Right. When you just because you're. Using all the tactics that the aggressive sales trainers tell you to use. I mean, if you're selling, you're still not making 200 grand a year. I promise you. No, I mean, it doesn't matter. There's something 

[00:22:16] Collin Mitchell: about humble beginning. It means that really, you know, you get some huge, you know, there's some huge benefits in that rather than just, you know, going into a good job market and landing, you know, six figure salary job with.

[00:22:29] You know, in sales, you know, with all the fancy tools. I mean, there's, there's a lot of things I 

[00:22:33] James Bowden: wouldn't have had it any other way. 

[00:22:35] Collin Mitchell: There's a lot of learning lessons. So along that path that I'm extremely grateful for. 

[00:22:41] James Bowden: Gratitude was going to be the word that I would use. 

[00:22:44] Collin Mitchell: It just gives you such a 

[00:22:45] James Bowden: thick layer of gratitude and other people are complaining and you're like, Hey, I'm just happy to be here.

[00:22:52] Collin Mitchell: You have no idea where I came from. This is like, you know, and, and that's, you know, it goes back to even just, you know, my personal journey. And I had to kind of a tough upbringing as a kid. I was raised by a single mom. My dad was never around and things like that, but you know, there's so many things like in business or in world, there's just like, Oh, this is cake man.

[00:23:09] Like, it's just 

[00:23:10] James Bowden: like, I'm just so based on what life's handed me so far. Yeah. Let's uh, bring that, bring that, bring on the cold call. Oh yeah, please. 

[00:23:18] Collin Mitchell: I, to this day still make cold calls because I actually enjoy it. Like I love starting and building relationships from nothing. It kind of, it lights me up and some people, you know, there's a lot of gurus out there, you know?

[00:23:31] Land all these sales with no cold calls. And it's like, I like cold calls. Don't take that away from me. 

[00:23:38] James Bowden: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, look, there's always going to be, and, and to kind of. Look at what's happening now. And, and you know, the work we do at outbound view, we're at our core and outsource sales development company.

[00:23:53] So we're working with different early stage companies and different industries to help them crack the code on outbound. And so. You know, for me, you know, you mentioned things like technology G yes. We use technology. We use the power dialers and the auto assisted dialers, and we have the email sequencing and all of those, the base tech stack.

[00:24:19] Right. Uh, but. The success and the progress and the measured growth that everybody wants to see an outbound is never, ever, it's never got anything to do with our technology. That it's just not even a, I mean, yes, it needs to be there. And if we do it, didn't have it. That would be an issue. But yeah. The things that we see and that I see, because my role here at outbound is a view, you know, I'm an account manager, right?

[00:24:49] So I'm helping, I'm working hand in hand with our clients, making the calls, hearing what the prospects are saying. Sometimes this companies have never made cold calls. Sometimes they've, they're trying it out and it didn't work or they hired somebody else and it didn't work. And we've got to, you know, there's always different things to figure out.

[00:25:09] But the thing that I think. A lot of people and a lot of early stage companies miss the boat on is regardless. If no matter what you do, if you're running cold, outbound motions, making calls, sending emails, you're going to find things out. Now. It may not be what you want to hear. I think that's the issue, right?

[00:25:34] You may be too early. You may not be actually solving a problem that anybody cares about the people you thought. Cared about the thing that you built don't care about the thing that you built. I mean, some kind of harsh realities, but when you're early stage, it's an interesting opportunity to use outbound sales as really a way to collect data, to help you.

[00:25:57] You know, iterate and build a better product and build your business and scale. I think it's a massively overlooked piece of running outbound place, a hundred, a hundred percent. And, you know, 

[00:26:08] Collin Mitchell: yeah. I agree with that so much because, um, you know, the, the, the core of outbound is, you know, I think there's two things, two parts to this, so, yeah.

[00:26:18] When people put all of their eggs in one basket, like outbound, and they think that that's going to get them where they need to go. That's a huge misconception. Like a lot of times, whatever you think your results are going to be based on the outbound efforts, you probably need to scale that back, back a little bit.

[00:26:34] And, but outbound, it is a longterm play. Right. So, yeah, you're going to get some wins along the way, but like you said, you're getting that feedback, right. And I'm a big, big believer in feedback because you're going to get. In outbound, whether it's sequencing, email, cold, LinkedIn phone, all of, of, all of the above, getting the people to say no to give you feedback is so valuable.

[00:26:56] It's almost equally as valuable as the people that say yes, because you use that. To craft, to adopt, to change the messaging. And then once it's really cranking, once the outbound is just really humming along and working well until it doesn't at some point, right? Um, 

[00:27:15] James Bowden: inevitably, always 

[00:27:18] Collin Mitchell: money on ads, then you can craft your messaging.

[00:27:20] Then you can like do some rebranding or whatever to really convert better. Like that feedback is so valuable to collect in order to move forward and really move the Mark or. You know, pour some fire on it or some gasoline, um, you know, whether that's paid ads or anything else, but like outbound is a low cost way to really get the feedback that you're looking for to take your company to the next 

[00:27:40] James Bowden: level.

[00:27:42] Absolutely. And you know what, we, we work with companies on that aspect of it, building out those processes, learning those types of things, setting the meetings along the way in some way, folks have, you know, have three out of the four things that you need really to figure it out. Already figured out when they come to us.

[00:28:00] So we're, yes, we're probably setting more meetings for those folks that are more early stage, but, uh, you know, another part of the work that we do here, and it's something that I love doing is, uh, we run training, right? So we'll work with our clients and we'll work with salespeople. Cool. And, uh, you know, on kind of some foundational parts of building pipeline.

[00:28:21] And, you know, we talk about cold calling and emailing and discovery calls and. When I, we were talking earlier about the shift in mentality, right? Compassion, more compassionate leadership, better leadership, more enablement, all those wonderful things. It hurts my heart. When, you know, I'm training with individuals that aren't, that are coming to our training programs, one to one right outside of their company, because for whatever reason, they're not getting it at their company, these things are still happening.

[00:28:55] Right. So you could have all the technology yeah. World, and you could even build out all the processes in the world, but yeah. You know, I'm still talking with reps that are being told, you know, when they're coming to leadership with problems, they're saying just have the right mindset, just go for it. What kind of advice is that?

[00:29:15] You know? So it's like for, for, yeah. Yes. Run the outbound. Get the technology straight, do the experiments, collect the data, but then also you got to have the leadership. That's the real deal. And it's walking the walk that understands how to get on a tactical level with the people doing the work. I mean, it's gotta be the whole piece.

[00:29:35] Uh, every little piece is gotta be there too, really make it work. Cause, um, I know reps that work at companies that have a lot of those things figured out, but they're missing the boat on the leadership part or the training part. Right. Yeah. Really making it real for them. So it's an interesting thing.

[00:29:52] It's a tough thing to do and it's fun work for us. Um, but it's not easy to crack. Oh yeah. I agree. And I think, you know, from 

[00:30:01] Collin Mitchell: my experience, a lot of times, you know, the leadership. You know, that that has that sort of mentality. Right. Um, or even just any sales professional, right. Once 

[00:30:11] James Bowden: you. 

[00:30:12] Collin Mitchell: Get to a point where you think, you know it all right.

[00:30:16] Maybe you finally landed that leadership role and you've maybe worked your way up or maybe you got handed. Maybe you deserved it. Maybe you earned 

[00:30:22] James Bowden: it. Maybe it didn't. I don't know, but yeah, 

[00:30:24] Collin Mitchell: for sure. Wherever you are in, in, in, in the organization and you know, whether it's at the bottom or the top, you know, once you stop.

[00:30:35] Being open to learning. And that's a big problem in any sales role, you know, you, you, you can't ever be in a place where you think, you know, at all, um, because things change, you know, 

[00:30:52] James Bowden: we're, we're reminded of that often. In the work we do, right. We look at stats on a weekly basis very quickly. It's like, alright, well, whatever we were doing last week is not working this week for whatever reason.

[00:31:07] So it's a experimentation is something that we. Kind of live and die by here. It's like how many different things can we be testing and trying and constantly, you know, we really try and run our teams like agile software development teams. Right? How agile can we be? Right. Let's run sprints. Let's do experiments.

[00:31:25] Let's be quick to pivot. Uh, that was always the worst thing. I hated it when I was an individual contributor and we were all screaming that things were wrong and they all, and the board and the executive team would say, we hear you got it. And then it would take four or five months to get it implemented.

[00:31:43] And then it's a moot point because the market's now shifted to this next thing. And man, if you're not agile, it's a pain 

[00:31:50] Collin Mitchell: for sure. A lot of these. A lot of this automation, a lot of this sequencing, a lot of these, you know, things have kind of, you know, as, as much as I love them. And they're good. There's some, there's some negative aspects to them as well.

[00:32:03] I don't know if you'd agree with that because you know, people are stopped. People have started to. Stop paying attention to a lot of that stuff, because if it's not super personal, which is hard to scale or automate, you know, you're not standing out from everybody else. You're not breaking through the noise.

[00:32:21] James Bowden: Yeah. Yeah, no, the it's, it's a dangerous, fine line with the, with the sequencing and the automation at scale and things like that. I'm still a believer of it. I still think that there's value in being. Personalized to the persona. Uh, I don't think anybody cares if you know where they went to college, but if you maybe know a few things about what they might be struggling with, maybe that's relevant.

[00:32:51] I think we're seeing nailed down right now. Bonds rates for obvious reasons with everything going on, response rates are low. Phone continues to be like, the analogy that I use is emails like fishing. You just casting the line out and waiting cold calling is like spear fishing. You're having it into the water and it's much messier and you might get bloody, but you, you could literally just grab one.

[00:33:19] Right? And, and if you're in the right spot bought at the right time with the right technique, You're probably more likely to walk away with a fish than you are just waiting for it. Right. Or at least quicker. Yeah. Quicker. 

[00:33:31] Collin Mitchell: And I think that people, you know, Need to know, like there's no silver bullet, right?

[00:33:35] You don't want to put all your eggs back 

[00:33:36] James Bowden: names in, 

[00:33:37] Collin Mitchell: in, in emailing or cold calling or, you know, you've got to hit them everywhere because you just, you never know which channel is going to resonate with what person at what time. It depends. There's just too many variables to think that, you know, and you know, you, you gotta really just use everything at your disposal, especially in times, like 

[00:33:57] James Bowden: now, Yeah, omni-channels the only way you have to.

[00:34:02] It's just there, you know, there's a, um, a book that I read when I got into sales development called outbound sales, no fluff by Ryan ricer and Rex  they target message. Channel timing. Okay. That that's the formula for outbound target. Who's your target? Is it the right message? Is that the right channel is at the right time and you're constantly trying to nail down all four of those at the same time to, to, to, you know, boom, it's all locked together, meeting set or.

[00:34:36] Three out of four, send some information follow up in two weeks because timing was off, right. Or two out of four. I need to stop emailing directors of HR and email directors of total rewards or, you know, whatever it is. It's like that formula is what, um, you know, we're all trying to constantly nail down 

[00:34:54] Collin Mitchell: and then it starts working and it works for a while.

[00:34:55] And then something changes and you got to. Switch it up. Yup. Yeah. Alright. Yup. 

[00:35:00] James Bowden: The Rubik's cube 

[00:35:01] Collin Mitchell: changes. You got to try it again, James. Thanks so much for coming on sales hustle today. Appreciate you brother. Uh, before I let you go, um, tell people where they can connect you to where they can learn more. And also every guest that comes on, it's got to bring some freebie for people.

[00:35:16] So let people know what you got 

[00:35:17] James Bowden: for them. Okay. Cool. So, um, I, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. That's the best place. Uh, James Bodden, easy to find they're on LinkedIn. Um, you know, my piece of actionable advice for folks out there, um, just really quickly experimentation. Uh, if you're running outbound, you have to experiment.

[00:35:39] I'd be happy to talk to you about our experimentation boards. It's literally just something we do in a spreadsheet. It's not like anything you'd have to pay for it, but it's a cool thing that we do for our clients that helps happy to talk about that. Another cool free thing that you can go check out is check that outbound

[00:35:56] Uh, It's a really cool free tool that we just released. Uh, and it allows you to find your contacts that you've got in your CRM and link them on LinkedIn. Find them on LinkedIn really easily. It doesn't cost a thing to use. Um, so yeah, we're trying to do all we can here at outbound to help you crack the code on cold outbound.

[00:36:16] Um, it's tough, but we're doing what we can. And Collin, thank you so much for allowing me to come on, man. This has been great. Awesome. 

[00:36:24] Collin Mitchell: Appreciate it. Thank you for tuning in to this episode, mode of sales hustle. Are you a sales profession, national looking to take your sales career to the next level? If the answer is yes, then I want you to go over to sales 

[00:36:38] James Bowden:

[00:36:41] Collin Mitchell: Check us out. If you feel that you are ready, set up a time to talk with me and my co founder, Chris, I'm your host colony Mitchell. And if you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a review. And share the podcast with your friends.