Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
April 20, 2022

#290 S2 Episode 159 - BUCKETS UP! Ryan Reisert Talking Buckets, Callbacks, and Leadership

Guess who’s back? Cognism Brand Ambassador Ryan Reisert returns in Sales Transformation to join Collin Mitchell in another exciting talk. Cognism is a leading sales intelligence company that is setting the bar in data quality and service. Ryan is an expert in cold calling and created the technique called “buckets”. Ryan and Collin will be talking today about the evolution of buckets and many more.

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Ryan’s sales background
How buckets work
Importance of callbacks
Ins and outs of handling cold calls
Leadership in cold calling and sales
The value of using the phone


Ryan: “I love cold calling, I love helping people figure out how to use cold calling to really change their trajectory. And I think sales and sales development is a big part of that so passionate about helping people learn the skills to be successful so that they can kind of own their own future.”

Ryan: “Buckets is, was my way of putting some stage definitions and exit criteria at the top of the funnel.”

Ryan: “if you build your buckets, as I say, over time, you don't need technology, you don't need automation, sales becomes really easy, at least one element, it becomes really easy.”

Ryan: “if you as the expert will not spend time talking to that person. And why you having someone else do it, there will always be conflict.”

Ryan: “The whole point of all this stuff is to get into conversations. That's the whole point.”

Learn more about Ryan in the link below:


Connect With Collin on LinkedIn

Want to Start, Grow or Monetize Your Podcast? Book a Free Strategy Call HERE!

Guess who’s back? Cognism Brand Ambassador Ryan Reisert returns in Sales Transformation to join Collin Mitchell in another exciting talk. Cognism is a leading sales intelligence company that is setting the bar in data quality and service. Ryan is an expert in cold calling and created the technique called “buckets”. Ryan and Collin will be talking today about the evolution of buckets and many more.


Join Our Free Podcast Community HERE!

Want to solve a leaky sales funnel? Get Signup for your Free RevenueGrid trial HERE! 

Want Your Reps Hitting Quota in 2022? Get Your Wingman Free Trial HERE!


  • Ryan’s sales background
  • How buckets work
  • Importance of callbacks
  • Ins and outs of handling cold calls
  • Leadership in cold calling and sales
  • The value of using the phone


Ryan: “I love cold calling, I love helping people figure out how to use cold calling to really change their trajectory. And I think sales and sales development is a big part of that so passionate about helping people learn the skills to be successful so that they can kind of own their own future.”

Ryan: “Buckets is, was my way of putting some stage definitions and exit criteria at the top of the funnel.”

Ryan: “if you build your buckets, as I say, over time, you don't need technology, you don't need automation, sales becomes really easy, at least one element, it becomes really easy.”

Ryan: “if you as the expert will not spend time talking to that person. And why you having someone else do it, there will always be conflict.”

Ryan: “The whole point of all this stuff is to get into conversations. That's the whole point.”

Learn more about Ryan in the link below: 

Connect With Collin on LinkedIn 

Want to Start, Grow or Monetize Your Podcast? Book a Free Strategy Call HERE! 

Looking to start your own Podcats? Book a FREE strategy call. 🚀


[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell. And this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.

[00:00:29] Hey, before we start today's episode, I wanted to bring you in on the best kept secret in B2B sales. If you're serious about social selling and your only strategy is cold DMS through LinkedIn, you're missing the mark big time. Learn how I fully manage revenue generating podcasts can change your life and your

[00:00:56] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation, super excited to have Ryan ricer on today for the second time round two, you know, it's going to be nothing but fire Ryan. Welcome to the show, man. I'm excited to be back. You know, you're doing some awesome. Congratulations on the growth of your podcasting business.

[00:01:17] It sounds like you got a really awesome business model coming together and it's, it's really cool to see how you're supporting the community too. Um, so thanks for having, yeah, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. And, uh, glad to have you back, um, you know, as you. We, I recently also started a cold calling show inspired by the work that you've been doing.

[00:01:35] And, uh, it's been a lot of fun. So thank you for that. And let's just, just for people who may be, have been living under a rock and don't know who Ryan ricer is. And, uh, just give us the, give us your sales story, the brief. Sure. And I, I mean, I don't, I don't, there's like a little vortex or an algorithm. It's not like a, it's not like I'm a, some sort of celebrity or something, but, uh, I mean, if you're, if you are on LinkedIn and fall cold calling, you might have come across my stuff.

[00:02:04] But yeah, man, uh, the synopsis, the short version, um, been in sales, I guess now for about 15 years. Started in 2008, didn't think I was gonna be in sales, have a math degree, uh, came from a pretty rough background for first person in my family to graduate, uh, even make it to college. Um, and then when I finished school, when I was.

[00:02:28] That was going to be a teacher supposed to my student teaching. I, uh, decided not to do that. And, um, you know, stumbled my way down into San Francisco. Uh, again, it was the middle of the recession, but, um, fell into sales and just fell in love with it. You know, there's a lot of applications with, uh, math and, uh, top of funnel sales, especially, uh, marketing, uh, Has been the backbone of most of the sales companies.

[00:02:52] I've been a part of either as a rep or a sales leader. I've been in ad tech MarTech. And then, um, for the last seven years or so, I've been really hyper-focused on sales development, um, focused on process first, you know, with all this technology, that's come to the market, all this data and technology, a lot of people forget that the, uh, data and the technology is not going to deliver results.

[00:03:13] You have to have a sound process. And so I've developed. A methodology that I call buckets, which puts some stage definitions and an exit criteria at the very top of the funnel. And so for, for folks that are just trying to figure out, um, new business development, sales development for the first time, uh, I've written a book called outbound sales, no fluff was pretty popular and it outlines this process.

[00:03:34] And I basically spend most of my time just continuing to tweak with that thing, um, in or around. The power of the human voice in cold calling. So it's like the, the very quick down and dirty background and, and, uh, doing a lot along the way, but I've had a lot of fun and, um, just really enjoy. I don't know, for some reason I love cold calling.

[00:03:54] I love, uh, I love helping people figure out how to use cold calling, um, to really change their trajectory. Um, and I think sales and sales development is a big part of that. So passionate about helping people, um, learn the skills to be successful so that they can kind of own their own. Yeah, love it. All right.

[00:04:11] So, and I actually just got around to listening to the audio version of outbound sales. No fluff recently, uh, appreciated the extra bonus content in there with, with James Baldwin. Yeah. It was like a fun, fun, little exercise we did, uh, in the middle of the pandemic. Uh, so I thought that would try to try something new.

[00:04:34] So let's, let's dig into, uh, buckets for a second year, right. Just for people who maybe aren't familiar. And what was like the you've mentioned that you've been tweaking the process a bit. What was, what was it when it first started and what has it sort of evolved? Yeah. So when it first started, um, like most people in new business development, sales development, lead generation, we want to call it was called lead generation specialist back then, um, inside sales rep boiler room calling, right?

[00:05:04] Most people are basically given a list and a phone and say, go. And until you get to a meeting, like, you know, we're across the table in a zoom or in a physical meeting. Um, there's not a lot of process. Like there's, there's a billion plus dollar training sales training industry. There's tons of sales methodologies that create stage definitions and exit criteria.

[00:05:27] For once there's a meeting, right? It might be stage one meeting scheduled or stage zero meeting scheduled and then stage one meeting held all the way through to close, right. And people get this idea of I'm in this stage, I'm supposed to accomplish these tasks and then to move to this next one, these things happen.

[00:05:45] W there's never really been anything at the top of the funnel demand, gen marketing has their own kind of funnel. It's like awareness, consideration decision, but you know, that's not like a, a sales process or methodology. And so buckets is, was my way of putting some stage definitions and exit criteria at the top of the funnel.

[00:06:06] And so, um, you know, it's four simple buckets you're moving from uncontacted, which is just. It should be in your swim lane. I call swim lane, your ICP, whatever you wanna call it. Um, but you haven't actually tried to reach them yet. Uh, that's bucket one, bucket two is, um, working. So once you start to work a lead, uh, and there's multiple multiple channels now.

[00:06:27] So the iterations is like when I first started was just. I think that's like you didn't cold email someone unless they opted in. And it was like, back in 2008, CRMs back then were full of phone numbers. Believe it or not, not the opposite, which were like full emails and you can't find phone numbers. It was, it was the opposite back then.

[00:06:42] Uh, but those phone numbers were not like more personal phone numbers and stuff. They were like, you know, work direct cause you call through and stuff like that. But, um, so, so working with. They're in your swim lane and you've started to work them, but you, you, you go through this validation process, which is another thing I've tweaked a bit, and we'll go a little bit more in detail later, if you want to go into that.

[00:06:59] But a stage three, a bucket three is priority. Meaning we've actually connected in a channel. So phone we've had a conversation. Uh, we haven't, we haven't, we haven't decided to do something else, but I know you pick up the phone and you should have some sort of familiarity or I'd gathered some information and I still want to follow up with you or you've responded to an email.

[00:07:16] Um, it would be a priority email or, um, on LinkedIn these days, we've, we've, we've connected, we're in the DM, uh, decide any other channel it's we're engaging, right? So that's a priority lead, but we haven't committed. And then the last bucket of course, is the, is that handoff, which is the meeting has been.

[00:07:32] So with those four simple buckets, you now have some clear stage definitions and exit criteria, which is not like what everyone else does list meeting by splitting the, working in the priority up. Uh, and then having, uh, this concept of when I start my day tomorrow, I want to work these buckets backwards.

[00:07:49] First thing I want to do is make sure my meetings hold. Once I've done that. I want to go and revisit previous engagements and conversations. Cause I can get more conversations faster. I can get further along in the process. Um, they're a little bit warmer and then once I'm done with that, I'm going to go and work the leads that I know have already validated.

[00:08:06] So I get my philosophy. All right. So back then it was about without automation and technology and stuff. It's like, how do I get to a hundred, 200 dials a day? Because the connect rate is still low and I need to do that to have enough conversations. And so I'm not just working cold leads all the time where I'm calling bad numbers and stuff, working numbers.

[00:08:22] Are I recently. I documented the path to a voicemail. I know it can get to call on if I'm trying to call Colin, I just haven't got to them yet, so I can speed up my efficiency and I know the data's good. Um, and I've already researched them, et cetera. And then once I've completed that I can then go and replenish and find net new leads.

[00:08:39] And so by having that process, what most people will do again, they're like constantly searching for a lead and then like the grab the lead, they kind of try to call them all at once. Right. Versus. You know, splitting these up. And what will happen is if you build your buckets, as I say over time, you don't need technology.

[00:08:54] You don't need automate. Sales becomes really easy. At least helps with element. It comes really easy. You build a bucket of priorities to about a hundred and you just work your priorities. You're going to have, you know, 15, 20 conversations. You're going to book a handful of meetings. It just becomes easy.

[00:09:09] I like to say the terms, don't be beer cans. So that's the process. Um, the tweaking has come with this proliferation of more data. Um, more channels. And, um, and also just like really understanding the nuances of, of, uh, moving a record from uncontacted and working, which is kind of what I do now with phone leads is I've learned a lot about the phone over 15 years on how it operates the math behind it.

[00:09:33] And. Just looking at literally millions and millions of dials and figuring out like, uh, the, the likelihood of someone to pick up the phone. So I can kind of hack, put the Disneyland fast pass to, uh, to, uh, phone picker, uppers. If I'm using the phone, for example, I love that analogy, Disneyland, fast pass. Um, so, uh, okay.

[00:09:53] So the thing there where I think most organizations or people just aren't doing is one lack of process in that top of funnel active. Being the first thing. Cause they're just going from, you know, cold never contacted to meeting and nothing in between right. Without buckets. Um, and then the interesting thing there is working in our priorities, right?

[00:10:12] So the people that you already are engaged with, or even, I mean, I would venture to say a lot of people don't even take the time to make sure their meetings stick. You're a hundred percent right. The show tomorrow and they just start just randomly like grabbing data, shove it into their sequencer and then completing tasks.

[00:10:30] That's what they do. They're not thinking strategically. And so buckets can help kind of break the noise. And the other thing here too, Colin is so much gold is in those conversations where somebody said, hello, and then hung up on you. You know, hello? No, I'm I should click. A lot of people will kick those off.

[00:10:47] Like, oh, they weren't interested. They didn't hear you. Right? Like they didn't, they don't even know your name and on anything you're talking about, you can follow up with that person in three days, have a conversation and it could be the best lead in your entire pipeline. Most reps will write that off.

[00:11:00] Like, oh no. If they say they're going to shit. So there's a ton of gold there. Your appointment's sticker one, but like the, the, the quote unquote negative sentiment calls are also where there's a ton of. Right. Yeah, because number one thing is you notice the right person and they've picked up the phone.

[00:11:19] Right. And. They may not really not be interested because they haven't given you a good enough reason that they'd probably didn't even allow you to even speak. They might've just caught him a bad time, caught them on a bad day. There's so many reasons why they might've hung up, um, been rude, uh, not, you know, let you pitch whatever the case is.

[00:11:40] Um, where most people then are reluctant to cause those back. Cause they're like, oh man, that guy's an asshole. I'm not going to call him back. They didn't even hear you, man. Most of the time, like, I mean, I, they definitely, aren't going to remember you, even if they did know. And sometimes they say they do all you've been calling you called them before.

[00:11:56] That's like another negative response. Yeah, no, maybe, maybe someone else would use a similar opener or whatever. That's why I really enjoy. There's another thing. Happened recently, hasn't been focusing a lot more on messaging and the nuances of how to actually break into a conversation and towns and ward law wrote a book called the article calling a couple of years ago.

[00:12:15] It's phenomenal. I've adjusted some of this stuff, but he talks about the art of interrupted communication and it takes a lot of cycles before you can get them. I just, I literally just did a four and a half hour telephone calling my LinkedIn connections, my LinkedIn connections, uh, to get boats for this chili pepper competition.

[00:12:33] And, um, um, you know, half the people don't know who I am. I'm a connection. Like they don't know who I am. Right. So you can't just call. And like, everyone has this assumption of intent date and stuff like. It's a cold call, regardless of how quote unquote warm it is. It's an interruptive conversation and you'll hear it from time to time where people's voice change.

[00:12:54] Once they finally hear, oh, right. Hello, who's this? What is this about? I guess, whatever. Oh, you know, like once they really, oh, sorry man. Like, it's like, you know, so even when it's warmer, the, I kind of use this example of, you know, you go to the mall, for example, these days, especially you go to mall, you're going to buy something.

[00:13:13] Right. Because. You know, you'd buy it online. If you weren't going physically, I would imagine like new there's experience, but you're in the mall. You go to the store that you're, you're there to buy something. The sales person walks up to you. What is the first thing you say now? I'm just looking, can I help you now?

[00:13:27] I'm just looking stiff arm, bam. Right? That's what's happening in the cold call except. You know, there's no intent, right? That's the highest intent purchase thing ever. I just drove down the road, showed up to the store on there to buy something. And the first thing I do is that stiff arm, non nothing. He sells person.

[00:13:44] Right. Instead, uh, we think that a cold call is like, Hey, you heard me? Thanks for my permission. But like, they're not listening to you. They're just ready to stiffer. Even the nice people there's ready to stiff arm, you know, I'm not interested in. Thanks. Bye. So listening, slowing down. Breaking the pattern.

[00:14:00] These are the things that I'm really excited about and like getting really into the details because, you know, I've cracked the code on the connects. So now it's like, well, how do you, how do you really, how you really maximize the conversation and this idea of compounding it to compounding across channels.

[00:14:16] So what are some of the early discoveries that you're excited about in, in, in that part of it? Right. So you've sort of mastered the connect now with the messaging in the pattern interrupt and like maximizing. Yeah. What happens when you get those people on the phone, but what are the things that you're coming across or are they, you know, that it's not a working and things that are working?

[00:14:36] Yeah. So I think that the thing that's interesting, this is going in a different direction business. Great. We'll run with it. And we were talking about, uh, we can talk about these things. I can talk about stuff all day. Um, so, so there's a lot of fatigue right now in the market with the sales development flow, right.

[00:14:52] Especially if you're in tech, SAS, Um, which I'm imagining a big part of your audience calling I'm in this boat. You're not STR sass, like your buyers are fricking annoying to you, right? You're just a, you're a flee that don't want to talk to you because you're trying to go in and interrogate them early, early in, often.

[00:15:08] And then you have to like qualify them before they'll even get on the calendar. And it's a cold call. It's really annoying. Right. And so what I'm, what I'm trying to show people is that like the, the future of sales development for cold for cold calling anyways, is, is really a distribution channel. And, um, the idea is to get in and stay in this awareness phase as much as you can, and you're building awareness, but you're also trying to become more aware.

[00:15:32] Is it the right person? Do they care about these things? And then trying to compound that into the digital funnel. Right. So that you can actually let some of the modern demand gen stuff drive them through, right. Almost like motivational interviewing, if you will. Um, just read a book, uh, think, think differently.

[00:15:51] I think just name of it, motivational interviewing versus like persuasive, uh, communication and getting them to try to come up with a decision on their own. So instead of calling and trying to book an appointment, it's calling and saying, Hey, look, you're probably not wearing me at all. You don't want to be better way to do this, is would it be okay if I got you some information about, again, hopefully it's relevant and timely, et cetera.

[00:16:09] And then, and then following up on that and the follow-up. The followup should actually then be with like the actual seller. So getting away from calling for appointments, um, you're activating your list. So you're calling to activate the lead and then getting activated leads in front of your professional sales team.

[00:16:29] And we have, we have CEOs that are making calls against these. We have, uh, obviously more senior sellers and making calls against these and the datas. Right, no more. Is there this conversation issue or issue with these no show rates, right. Instead of calling and booking a meeting that half the people show up, which is about average these days, what if instead I activated a lead and then had the CEO call because I'm back on the phone.

[00:16:50] Again, those conversations can go 10, 15, 20 minutes. You spoke with my colleague the other day. I know you expressed the mistress is now a good time to talk. Would it make sense? I have some time now. Boom. Right. And so, uh, when you can get someone on the phone, every four dials, and now you can activate this lead and you have 15 minutes, 15, 10, 15 minute conversation.

[00:17:09] Um, who cares about the meeting? Right? It's about starting a conversation, figuring out where they're at and then, um, put it in front of like the real. The real expert at the company and like the differences in terms of the sales velocity, the ability to like, lose, like let them be like, oh no, actually I'm not interested right now.

[00:17:25] Perfect. Don't need to waste time in a meeting. Right. All of that goes away and you can really drive instead of thinking about like a funnel, it's like a, it's like a nail, right? You've got this big fat, wide thing at the very top or a really tight funnel. If you want to look at it, but really fat, wide thing at the top, like here's your whole audience.

[00:17:40] And then once you get the ones that are ready, it's like a nail just powering it through. So you're seeing a much faster sales. Um, and it's a better buyer experience, right? You're not persuading them to take their time, which is super valuable, but if it's relevant, they're willing to talk. And so that's some of the stuff that we're really, we're starting to show in the data.

[00:18:00] We're seeing some amazing results for some of the first people doing this. Um, and, um, and it's, it's, it's, it's opening up the, um, the buyer to be less, you know, again, less stiff army and being more, uh, more. Um, we know when it's not the STR trying to ask all these crazy questions and then they're like, oh, that sounds interesting.

[00:18:19] Tell me more, actually let's book a meeting, right. Instead of, instead of that, it's like, I can answer every question you want, you wanna talk now or you wanna talk later, you know, it's very different experience. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I have, I have a few questions around this, right? So basically number one, it's, it's a huge pattern interrupted on the first call.

[00:18:37] They're not trying to grab him by the throat to book a meeting. Right. And then. The ask is just, Hey, I'm going to send you some information. If you think it'd be relevant at that stage, you know, what does the, does this create like another bucket? Does four buckets become five here? No. You know, the priority is I've talked to you before, except them to pass that off.

[00:18:59] And it's not me following up. It's the actual senior person and bright, and are people actually reviewing this information and what are they sending? Yeah. So we're, we're running this on a couple of different campaigns right now. We also partnered with a company that is something called video case stories.

[00:19:14] So it depends on what content you want. Um, but for video case stories, it's like, uh, relevant customer stories. So instead of me sending you. You know, linked to my website and like product information. It's like, Hey, by the way, we work with someone similar to you and here's, here's the CEO telling her experience, like, what was the problem before, you know, why did they, why were they really looking for something?

[00:19:34] And what's their experience now? Like, that's their first experience with your brand. It also goes like a YouTube and they can like retarget to them and all of other stuff. And then you can compound that with like a product story or whatever. So that's like the video case story stuff. But it can also be as simple as like we've got some more information, it could be a link to the website.

[00:19:51] It could be whatever, as long as the, as long as the, um, the marketing side is clear and cohesive, then, then that can work too. But, um, the, the power is not the information by the way. Right? Like mostly like, yeah, they might read it. We're seeing like 80, 90% open rates on that. Cause it's like immediate. So K I'm gonna send it to you right now.

[00:20:10] You got. Yeah. You know, most of them, unless they're driving, they're going to be like, yeah, I got it. And you see the open, you know, being right. So you're, you're actually getting to see it and whether they read or not, it doesn't really matter. Some are actually replying and booking right away. So then you didn't have to ask for it because you just put the meeting link right in there, like, Hey, if this is relevant at all, and it's easier for you.

[00:20:26] CEO's calendar, uh, AEs calendar worked with a lot of startups, so a lot of times to see you and, um, but the, the reality is it's the compounding of that. So getting, getting them to agree, it's like a love

[00:20:44] I can't think of it right now. I give you something. And even if, even if I just, you know, I'd give you something which in this case, like is a fricking information. You're more likely to, you know, it's micro-commitment to the next thing. , I'm so burnt right now. Anyway. Um,

[00:21:02] Anyway, I can't think of it. It's more psychological, but you're committing to you being open to receiving it. You're getting it. I then have a reason to then call back and then we have a reason to have a conversation. And it's important that you compound it fairly quickly too. So a lot of people wait forever on that.

[00:21:18] You know, it's like, I talked to you today. You got it. You got it right now. The reps calling within two days, max, not a week later, not, not waiting forever and not seeing what they're gonna do. No, you get right on it. It's okay. We spoke the other day. Is this relevant in all orange? Being a nice guy. And again, if it's not, it's not relevant, that's fine.

[00:21:35] But look, what's the no-show rate on meetings at 50%. In this case, you're getting the conversation. So quote, unquote, show. If it's not relevant, they're gonna tell you right away. Boom. Just saved 30. And the ones that are, I was like, yeah, actually, this is really interesting. Let's go. And that's the, that's the key.

[00:21:50] And so many people have a hard time wrapping their mind around this. Like, wow, that's weird. It's like, no, I want the meeting and they're not committed. And it's like, I don't know, man, this is like, it's moving quick. You know, you're getting, you're shaking. I use the example of, um, like panning for gold. I took my son up to this, uh, place in Northern California where.

[00:22:09] It's like the old gold, gold rush stuff. And you can like still pan pan for gold. And it's like, you're just shaking the stuff and shaking it and you're shaking and shaking it. So you get the phone ready, leads that figure out who picks up. So they picked up once. Then you got like an SDR that runs this activated lead, not a meeting, but just to build the awareness.

[00:22:25] So shaken it out even more. Now they picked up twice. So they picked up and they picked up again. They're a fricking poem. Picker-upper. So by the time it gets to the senior seller, they're going to have a conversation, every four dials. Super efficient and, uh, and there's some awareness. And so if you compound that fast enough, if I'm a rep and I have a list of activated leads meeting, just cancel on me or whatever, I go to activate leads, load it up.

[00:22:47] Call. I could probably have 5, 6, 7 conversations in 30 minutes. One of them might turn into a full on 20, 30 minute conversation, pretty productive use of my time. And you're just panning out. You're panning out. You're panning out trying to find that nugget in a really efficient way. So it's a, it's like another two steps in the assembly.

[00:23:06] But it's efficient. It sounds inefficient. It's very efficient. Once you, you know, master, I don't think there's anything that sounds inefficient about it. Um, it's just, it's, it's just making people think totally different than they have been for a long time of approaching this top of funnel. Yeah. Is there people who push back on this idea, like, oh no, we would never do that.

[00:23:33] That makes no sense. Oh yeah, of course. Of course. Just like people just like people, just like people say, cool, Colin's dead, you know, uh, you know, no, I'm not, that's not qualified. It's like, look, you build a list of the people you want to talk to. You. It's really shameful. I talked to him about this with them.

[00:23:49] You build a list of the people you want to talk to you, you know exactly what to say to them, the message, right? You call it. And you follow up. It's literally that simple. So where there's conflict is like, well, that leads a waste of my time. I was like, well, why are you, why are you having anyone call them?

[00:24:08] If you don't want to call them? Why you haven't anyone call them? That's the friction point. So, oh, I can't waste my time on a Elisa qualified. It's like, well then why are you spinning? Why are you? They're not even prospects they're victims. We talk about this and sells no fluff. It's like, you know, they're not prospect they're victims.

[00:24:23] If you, if you, as the expert will not spend time talking to that person. And why you having someone else do it. Right. But there's always conflict. There's always conflict. Um, we were just talking about in the pre show around like how terrible it is to find someone who could build a good list of like the people you want to talk to.

[00:24:41] It's really difficult. That's, that's a big pushback. And then it's the followup man. Um, I, when I started phoning any leads, I said, look, uh, if you're going to do this outsourcing thing, you either gotta go up. Where, you know, you just get the people that pick up better data, or you gotta go all the way through, because in the middle of this, AEs will not call it just won't.

[00:25:04] Right? Like that's why the no-show rates so high too. When I was at connect and sell the average show rate for the rest of the inside sales team was like 50% mine was in the high seventies. And I'm pretty sure the difference is that I have like a process once it was handed off to actually like reach out, confirm meetings, things like that, connect with them do video, but also if they were late to the.

[00:25:23] I pick up the phone and I call them and there's so many meetings that happened that way. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm getting into now. But most AEs will sit there and then those drop off, they don't do anything really? Oh yeah. Oh, it was a no show. They didn't are. They'll send an email. Hey, are you going to join?

[00:25:39] They'll send the email. Hey, I'm on the link. Are you going, gonna join? No, they're not on link. Cause they're probably doing something else. Call them like it, you know, like it started with a phone call, especially like with the connected cell teams. Like it started the phone call, they their phone.

[00:25:50] Picker-upper like, I can call them like, but they don't do it. They will not pick up the phone, man. That's crazy. That's crazy. So the activated leads, that's a problem. It's not really a meeting. You're like, what do I do with it? They're sending emails like, Hey, is this interesting? I pick up the phone, talk to people.

[00:26:10] Yeah. I mean, maybe you need to just put together some content on a tutorial. On how to just actually use the phone. Maybe I should, huh? Maybe I should. Maybe I should do like a live show where I show him the phone. Maybe I should do that every day. Maybe I should like, maybe I should do a live Coco in session every single day to show people.

[00:26:30] How to do it, maybe that would do it. Oh, wait. Oh, wait. I already do it. Colin. I cold call every single day, man. I show all this stuff off. It's so simple. Pick up the phone. People want to talk. It's crazy. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. Even for people who actually use the phone, you'd be surprised. People. I mean, I, I call people every week.

[00:26:52] Um, and some people are surprised like, oh man, you actually called me. And I'm like, yeah, what else was I supposed to do? Look, I mean, not everyone's going to pick up the phone. Right. Like that's okay. Um, but there's still a good chunk of the market that does. And, um, And not everyone that picks up the phone is going to be nice.

[00:27:16] Okay. There's still a good, there's still a chunk of people that will bark at you, but that's our job. This is the victim mindset. Right? You hear a lot of stuff on LinkedIn, you know, why can't someone respond? It's like, dude, you're spam. I can tell you until, until you actually provide something like I didn't opt into your.

[00:27:34] We're spam, right? Whether it's a call, whether it's a personalized email, whether it's spam, like I did not ask for this. And so by it's our job though, right? The economy requires this to happen. If we don't do it. Um, you know, Elon Musk says, if you don't make stuff, there's no stuff that look fun thing over the pandemic mode.

[00:27:52] If you don't sell stuff, there's no stuff, right. You have to, if you don't sell and make stuff, there's no stuff. But sales is a vital part of our economy. And, um, you know, unfortunately it's a part of the job. Like not, everyone's gonna be nice and people are. These days so sensitive to the negative feedback, which has nothing to do with them.

[00:28:10] Again, they don't, they're not even hearing you. Maybe it's a bad day. It's just like, just get to the next one. It's okay. Don't blame them. Don't post about it. Don't say, oh my God, you're a sales leader. Doesn't do calls. What's your problem. It's like, dude, next, who cares? Next? Just don't take it so damn personal.

[00:28:27] Yeah. It's got nothing to do with you. Nothing to do with your thing. Nothing to do with it. It doesn't have to do with them either. It's not them. It's not them. They're not. The enemy, like you chose to reach out to them. They can, someone's like, well, they could be nice. It's like they could, or they, and then, you know, the funny part is the next time somebody cold calls them, they're doing the same thing to that person.

[00:28:49] Exactly. That though people that say that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No. Alright. W well, let's shift gears just a little bit, right? So I'm going to make an assumption here. It starts at the top with sales leaders. So what can sales leadership be doing better to solve this problem? They got to get in the trenches man.

[00:29:10] Like there's so many sales leaders that are so like, I mean, they're like on Mars, man, like they're so. Gone, you know, or we're on Mars and they're still on the planet. If you want to look at that, I don't know what it is, but there's a huge disk. There's a massive disconnect around what the reality is and what's going on.

[00:29:33] Right. Um, the, the approach, the opinions. Oh, I don't like that. That doesn't feel right. It's like, have you tried any of this stuff yourself lately? No. It was the last time you tried something new with your team in the transition with little AMU, a little bit of vulnerability and a little bit of humility.

[00:29:59] The scripts that come out, man, like this. Oh, we got a great script. Like, dude, have you tried to like, like, it sounds great. Like you read it it's okay. But like have you actually tried it? Like when you're, it's like, dude, this, so there's a process. It evolves. And like, you know, this is what we do in our lives.

[00:30:13] We do this in our lives where we show in the script and we're changing out words and we wrote a one way, but it's like, man, I don't really like that. And like, you know, like get in there and from, for everybody. Yeah. Like you and I could start with the same script. And at the end have something very different just based on how I feel confident saying certain things versus how you feel confident saying certain things.

[00:30:33] Exactly. Like sometimes you, sometimes you can't pronounce certain words. Like the enunciations off the, you know, the, the, uh, accent's a little different, you know, you're a very calm, collected dude. I'm very kind of, you know, I got like more high pitch, you know, it's going to come off different. We can't say the exact same things and expect that to work for both of us.

[00:30:54] We have different personalities. And so the framework should remain the same consistent, but it's about confidence first and then consistency. And then. And then making that, making that something that's gonna work for you. And, uh, and, and if leadership doesn't get in and see that, and they're sometimes they're there, they're managing from the ivory tower, um, fricking spreadsheet management, you know, these, this crazy benchmark level reporting on what expectations are over and over and over again, you hear it over, uh, I've I've literally worked with over a thousand companies in the last seven years in this space, right through insights.

[00:31:32] Through the sales developers, and now parallels like thousands of these funded companies. And it's all the same over and over and over again. It's like, but none of those companies are alike. All of their math of sales is actually different, but they don't actually track it. No one can, no one can tell you their numbers.

[00:31:47] They spit out benchmark stuff. That's not true. It's like when you get in there and you actually start to show them and it's no wonder why their reps are struggling so much. And so like, they've got to get in there. They got to get in the trench. They got to know their numbers. Um, if they really want to start to make a difference and it will go a long way to, um, to get in and do the things that you're asking your reps to do, they're going to be more likely to do them, but unfortunately, there's a lot of cultures.

[00:32:14] Even if they like, for example, we're going back to cold calling, even if they, um, they, they say they're a cold calling company. The culture of cold calling is dead in so many organizations. They're just definitely afraid to pick up the phone. They're poorly enabled all of those things that make it really difficult.

[00:32:30] And it starts from the top, like you said, they're not there. They're not doing it. They never would do it, but they're certainly saying, Hey, pound the phones and you know, no one wants to work for a leader like that. Yeah. I mean, so leaders need to lead by example. I would even, I think you'd agree with this, but I'd love to get your opinion.

[00:32:47] I think sell new sellers shouldn't be able to use anything, but the phone for extended period of time until they master that before using any other channels. Does that statement because I agree. Yeah. What do you, what do you think about that? All I think about man. No, I'm just saying people come in and they get so wrapped up in sequences and emails and social selling and spam DMS and all this other stuff in like, there's a place to use those things.

[00:33:15] I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm a phone first person forever, but I do believe in these other channels as well. Without mastering the phone first. Like those other channels just don't even matter. Oh, oh 100%. And I I'm, uh, I mean, I'm probably the biggest proponent of Coca-Cola and on this planet, right. Um, maybe you're up there now to just big, big, big, big power, power user, the phone.

[00:33:39] Um, obviously this is your stake right now is like forever. I wouldn't say forever because I think the phones will die at some point it's it's dying. Right. We're seeing the data it's going to. However, it's still very powerful as an approach, but you can use that phone first. You can use that to initiate your entire list strategy in the most efficient way possible, especially if you've run validation right.

[00:33:59] Once I know if you pick up or not, then just call those. And then, you know, if I know you took the time to program your voicemail or not, then I can do a voicemail strategy and you learn so much from the phone, um, uh, that, that you just don't from, from, um, from the other channel. But more importantly, like the whole point of all this stuff is to get into conversations, but that's the whole point.

[00:34:21] So you're using all this technology. You're, you're automating sequences and dah, dah, dah, then you show up and like, you can't have a conversation because even when it's scheduled, you don't know what to say. You don't know how to, you don't know how to roll with things that are being said. If someone hits you with something, that's a little bit off track.

[00:34:41] You're you're you're done. Right. And, you know, cold calling you're out of practice of having conversations. You mean? Yeah, man. Uh, yes. I know, again, there's so much value in the phone. Um, all those other things are marketing. And if you want to be, if you want, I mean, even telemarketing is telemarketing, but if you want to be a real solid sales professional, and in the near future, you've got to, you know, someone just said this to me recently, which I thought was smartest thing.

[00:35:12] Someone else's content, I don't know who to give credit to, but it wasn't, it wasn't me, but you got to stay above. The API. Uh, I think David Delaney was saying the same above API Noah Goldman. I know this is his thing because he has this book that he sells and publish. I'm trying to get them to do it, um, called the binary principle.

[00:35:28] And he's like, the future of sales is around two things. You're either helping with selection or you're helping with implementation. Everything else is going to go to the buy button and we're already seeing that. And so if you want to differentiate yourself like, and you're spending all this time, building sequences and running those automations, all this stuff, like, dude, that's a bot.

[00:35:47] That's going to do all that. It's a, you already seen that happening. So if you want to preserve your skillset, not only is it important, so you can get better, but it's important. So you can maintain your job for a long enough period of time. If this is a professional more pursue period, like no one wants to hire something a bot can take over.

[00:36:05] Right. And that's going to happen in the next few years. So. That's just the truth, man. Well, thanks Ryan for coming on, man. This was fun as always. Uh, where's the best place for people to get into and find out more about all the things that you do. And I'm a super active on LinkedIn. You can find me there.

[00:36:25] And, uh, and then of course, I always always say this, you know, you always call me too. Um, my phone doesn't let you go through. So make sure if you call, leave a voicemail, call you back. My number is 4 1 5 9 9 4 0 1 1 0. I'd love to talk. Um, how many people actually call none? Maybe one or two came back to me, but again, I, I don't, I don't blame them.

[00:36:47] Right. If I, if I was a really good prospect or it's like, oh, you're, you know, you're like, You know, you do. I don't even know what you do. You look at my profiles. What do you like cognizant or what company for like, I wouldn't even know how to prospect me, so I don't blame them, but if you want to talk, shop, shoot me a note.

[00:37:00] Um, you can call me in time. I'll I'll I'll return your call when I'm in. There you go. We'll drop the link there in the show notes for everybody. If you enjoyed today's episode, please write us a review. Share the show with your friends really does help us out. And we're always listening for your feedback.

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