Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
April 18, 2022

#288 S2 Episode 157 - HYPER-TARGET YOUR MARKET: How Rob “The RevOps Hitman” Changes The Game With Data-Driven Prospecting

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Rob’s professional journey
How data and buying decisions tie together
The plague of high-volume outreach
Shifting of buying personas
Data needed to get started


Rob: “The issue is that a lot of people look at selling as a speculative process, there's no reason for it to be as speculative as it is. It's an assumption, it's an educated guess.”

Rob: “You have to get as targeted as possible, we have an issue in the market, a disease going around, It's a plague. It's called high-volume outreach.”

Rob: “Instead of contacting 1000 people, why not just have a technology that can find the needles in the haystack, analyze who you've done business with, who you failed to do business with, build a predictive model around that.”

Rob: “Over time, businesses change the market changes, your persona shifts, your product might shift to the persona shifts with it, everything's moving, it's a moving target at all times in business.”

Rob: “You need to be influential and like myself brutally honest, people either love you, or they hate you.”

Learn more about Rob in the link below:

Website: (Company Website) (RSS Feed) (SMARTech™ Platform)

Connect With Collin on LinkedIn

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Sales Transformation brings you another exciting episode as Collin Mitchell will talk about targets with none other than the RevOps Hitman himself, Rob Turley. Rob is the President and Co-Founder of White Rabbit Intel, a company that advocates “predictable prospecting”. Rob and his team created the first-ever SMARTech which helps their clients analyze their prospects if they are a fit even before meeting them.


Join Our Free Podcast Community HERE!

Want to solve a leaky sales funnel? Get Signup for your Free RevenueGrid trial HERE! 

Want Your Reps Hitting Quota in 2022? Get Your Wingman Free Trial HERE!


  • Rob’s professional journey
  • How data and buying decisions tie together
  • The plague of high-volume outreach
  • Shifting of buying personas
  • Data needed to get started


Rob: “The issue is that a lot of people look at selling as a speculative process, there's no reason for it to be as speculative as it is. It's an assumption, it's an educated guess.”

Rob: “You have to get as targeted as possible, we have an issue in the market, a disease going around, It's a plague. It's called high-volume outreach.”

Rob: “Instead of contacting 1000 people, why not just have a technology that can find the needles in the haystack, analyze who you've done business with, who you failed to do business with, build a predictive model around that.”

Rob: “Over time, businesses change the market changes, your persona shifts, your product might shift to the persona shifts with it, everything's moving, it's a moving target at all times in business.”

Rob: “You need to be influential and like myself brutally honest, people either love you, or they hate you.”

Learn more about Rob in the link below: 

Connect With Collin on LinkedIn 

Want to Start, Grow or Monetize Your Podcast? Book a Free Strategy Call HERE! 

Looking to start your own Podcats? Book a FREE strategy call. 🚀


[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell. And this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.

[00:00:29] Hey, before we start today's episode, I wanted to bring you in on the best kept secret in B2B sales. If you're serious about social selling and your only strategy is cold DMS through LinkedIn, you're missing the mark big time. Learn how I fully manage revenue generating podcasts can change your life and your

[00:00:55] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation. I'm excited today to have Rob Turley on he's the president co-founder, uh, over. White rabbit Intel. Rob's the president. And co-founder like I mentioned, he's a visionary who thinks and sees things differently. They call him the rev ops Hitman.

[00:01:14] He's a true definition of a disruptor in sales and marketing space. And his ideas are often unpacked. With mainstream influencers because he shatters their deep rooted paradigm. So, you know, this is going to be an interesting conversation. Rabo often goes into controversy, which is totally fine, because if you fight me, that means you're either thinking differently or learning something.

[00:01:36] So I'd rather have a user brain and be upset with me then to adhere to the status. Yeah, there we go. All right. So without further ado, let's get into it. Give us a little bit of a background, like before we start pissing some folks off. Why should people even listen to you? Give us a little bit of your background and your professional, um, story.

[00:01:57] So my background is a hot mess. That makes absolutely no sense at all. I'll establish that. That, uh, you know, when I was younger, like kid, uh, worked in landscaping, drywalling roof, ceiling plumbing, uh, it was a plumber's apprentice for awhile. And then I went to college, uh, uh, at RIT Rochester Institute of technology for those who don't know what it's like, the MIT of New York and MIT and RG hate each other.

[00:02:19] It's a constant battle. Uh, uh, when for graphic design specialized in user experience, user interface, uh, minored in, uh, business psychology, advertising, communications, PR, and journalism writing. Wow. That's a mess. It's a mouthful from there, uh, is that, uh, I was working professionally all throughout college, so pretty much 40 hours a week.

[00:02:38] Uh, while I was taking 18 to 21 credits, I was a fucking psychopath pretty much. Uh, then from there, uh, invented a patent during college, currently selling that to, uh, to a large automotive manufacturer, uh, or a couple that I'm trying to get bids on it. And then, uh, worked in advertising, worked in, uh, global events, uh, for F.

[00:02:57] Uh, also worked in, um, what communications and PR hated that, oh my God. Did I hate that? And then, um, it's the people, the culture is like, but I'm very fake. Right. Uh, then from there went into a web development and web design to product development, product design, and then into artificial intelligence, uh, after a brief dip into the crypto, uh, dark.

[00:03:21] Uh, world. Yeah. So I think now your preface to that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I know, done a lot of stuff. Uh, so background in UX UI, right. And then moved into a sales out of a necessity though. I was a bartender throughout most of all of that. And, uh, I learned to sell through bartending really, uh, the best upsell is that, you know, you said you want another drink?

[00:03:45] They're like, no, no, no, I'm good. I'm good. Like, you're good. But you could be. 60% success rate. I mean, you could probably even just say, are you sure and shut up and they'd be like, oh, fine. One more. Well, maybe that's good. You can insult some people with that though. If you say it you're good, but you could be great.

[00:04:02] Your tip will increase or they will buy another dress. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. All right. Um, so today we're going to talk about some interesting things. Um, I know that you're a bit of a data geek, so, um, let's talk about data. Let's talk about making decisions based on data. Tell us a little bit just high level of what you guys do over there.

[00:04:25] And then let's lead into like how sellers and revenue teams could be using that to make better decisions around. Sure. I mean, all decisions should be made around data because the data is tracked. Um, a lot of the times companies don't even know it's being tracked because the CRM automatically tracks it, uh, automatically logs it, you just don't have a visible or you don't know what to do with it.

[00:04:43] And when I say you, I mean, anybody who doesn't, um, now. The issue is that a lot of people, uh, look at selling as a speculative process. There's no reason for it to be as speculative as it is. It's an assumption. It's an educated guess or it's who you want to sell to though. You may not even. Maybe selling to them is a bad idea.

[00:05:07] Um, for example, uh, someone wants to target CRS at SAS companies in the United States between 200 to 500 size. That's the target first off, that's not really a target, cause it's not nearly granular enough. That's why your win rates less than 5%. Um, and then second off is that a. You may not even sell any of them because none of them are a fit.

[00:05:25] You should be selling to sales directors at SAS companies, specifically in FinTech. Um, you know, between the size of a thousand to 5,000, you don't really know where you should be or where you could be. Cause there's a bunch of outliers of the process. It's not about what you want. It's about what the market wants is.

[00:05:43] People forget. And by learning humans, that's how you're able to really break the veil. At that point. It's not so much about the company. Everybody talks about. Account-based targeting, that's a good first step in the right direction, but you can target a council. You want, that's not all that. What's relevant businesses do not buy from other businesses.

[00:06:02] That is a common misconception. People who work at businesses, buy from other people who just so happened to work at another business because they're trying to solve a collective problem as a group. So impulse buys out the window, businesses buying something out the window, unless it's some sort of commodity, like you're buying a 10 million screws or something like that, then it's all about price.

[00:06:23] But when you're talking about the experience, your product is similar to a lot of other things. Whether you think it is or isn't whether you think you're unique, which has founder's disease or not, it doesn't matter how new unique you are because of people perceive you the same as ZoomInfo or some other random company.

[00:06:39] That is what you are to them. That is the reason. So, how do you cut through the noise? So they don't go with an alternative. You have to get as targeted as possible. We have an issue in the market. There's a disease going around. It's a plague it's called high volume outreach. What it's done is dug this mile-wide hole that we're all sitting in right now, which is why everybody's like, please help rev ops help.

[00:07:00] Mile-wide whole. That everybody's sitting in and we just keep picking up the shovel and digging deeper thinking. It's a rope that shovel is doubling the emails, doubling the cold calls, doubling the ad, spend doubling everything where if you're not hitting your quotas, double everything, more stress, weaker relationships.

[00:07:17] In the end, you get more sales, but really what are you doing? You're adding to a cumulative issue just cause your company doubled their emails, who says all the other ones didn't too. So now it becomes an even deeper sea and longer sea of noise. And that's why we're sitting right now in a place that it takes 18 touches to get someone's attention.

[00:07:36] On average, 10 years ago, it was seven to nine, 10 years before that it was three to four. We're headed really fast in the wrong fucking direction. Okay. And that's because we're not using a data-driven approach. You use high volume because you don't know what you're supposed to do or who you're supposed to.

[00:07:53] That's why you do it cause eventually a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. Sure. That's the way sales is treat. It's a numbers game law of large numbers. If you, if you, uh, email a thousand people tend to reply out of those 10, who reply three will be qualified out of the three that are qualified.

[00:08:06] One will close. No, it's, you can do it much smarter instead of working harder. And that's the idea behind why? Uh, my partner and I started white rabbit Intel is because we need to solve this problem smarter, not harder instead of contacting a thousand people, why not just have a technology that can find the needles in the hay?

[00:08:27] Analyze who you've done business with, who you fail to do business with build a predictive model around that. And we all put a persona. So more leads can be found with it. That's just the side output, but the predictive model allows you to take any leads that are generated, run them through and then see how well they fit to your client base.

[00:08:44] I E. Jen J a company XYZ is 87.4% fit to your client base. You should reach out to her right now, everybody else out of that list of a thousand got disqualified. You have the cream of the crop, top 10, top 50, whatever it may be right up there, and you can prioritize them based off of the level of fit. Okay.

[00:09:01] So question for the, for you on that point there. So. You process this list, you get the, you know, the needles in the haystack, you can reach out to those specific people that are the most likely best fit for you to do business with. What do you do with the remainder of that list? Do they, at some point become a better fit or are they being ignored or does anything change?

[00:09:28] To then increase the percentage of the likelihood that they're a good fit for you. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Over time businesses change the market changes, uh, your, uh, persona shifts, your, your product might shift to the persona shifts with it. Everything's moving, it's a moving target at all times in business.

[00:09:43] So if someone only scored as let's say 12%. That doesn't mean in six months they won't be F a 42% or an 86%. So you can run them again, uh, because we're pulling data from the sources, like the Metta scrapers out there, the big brothers out there, uh, every single time on any contact record so that we can enrich it with all of the psychometric data, uh, uh, some behavioral demographic, firmographic, geographic.

[00:10:07] We're pulling it all in one place, but we're making it, um, centric around the individual human being, the person, since people buy from the people that they know like, and trust, if it's somebody who doesn't. That criteria? No like, and trust, even if they have a need for it, they're not going to buy from you.

[00:10:23] I just had a conversation with Andy Paul. Uh, the huge sales influencer out there. It's about rehumanizing, uh, sales is what he talks about all the time. And it's about being human. And it's about initial perception. If the person doesn't like you or what your business stands for, it's simple. They will never do business with.

[00:10:41] Period. So, okay. That's an interesting point. I love Andy Paul. I'm a big fan of Andy Paul. Um, I had a call with him this morning, actually. So, uh, he's now one of my favorite, uh, I call them, uh, one of the sales stages and that's, it's not easy to get to that level. There's only these people in that way for a long time, since the very beginning of his career, he decided to just do things different.

[00:11:04] You know, um, I don't know if he told you the story, but like in his, you know, his first sales training, they basically, they came back to like, Hey, this guy's not, should not be in sales. And his manager took a shot on him and he did things his way and has been extremely successful. And I was told the same thing in sales.

[00:11:21] It's funny. Some of the people that don't have those typical sales characteristics. Or the best people entails. And that's, that's an interesting thing. Do you need to be persuasive? No, you need to be influential. And like myself, brutally honest, people have to love you, or they hate you. That middle ground is all a bunch of gray area that you don't even want to be a part of.

[00:11:43] They have to love you. They hate you. They respect you. They don't, I don't think you can black and white either, but when it comes to emotions, it's usually a mix of everything, but then your brain spits it out as a black and white. Um, okay. So I want to follow up on this point, right? Is you're looking at this data and looking at some very specific things to say, you know, let's say if you're looking at it from a sales.

[00:12:09] Perspective rather than a company, right. So let's say, are they, how, how, um, can you do this? I don't know. Um, maybe they're a good fit. Maybe they're a, uh, somewhat of a good fit percentage wise for the company, but would they be a better fit? With a specific sales rep. That's more aligned with that potential buyer.

[00:12:31] And talk to me a little bit about, well, I mean, if you only, uh, analyze a sales reps, data, particularly sales rep, then it's centric centric around them completely. Right. That is what it is. If it's about them, then it's about them. If it's about a team, you can do teams. If it's about a product, you can do products.

[00:12:47] It's about the entire company target. It's about that. It's if it's about who subscribes to your marketing crap, it's about who you're subscribed to your marketing crap. It all depends on you teach the system, what it wants to analyze, and then you teach it what a positive outcome is and what the negative outcome is.

[00:13:03] That way it knows right from wrong. Well, what I'm interested in knowing more is like, When you look at the psychographics of things, there could be people. I would prefer to let you say you and I work at a company together, we sell the same exact thing and there's particular buyers that are going to be better matched with you.

[00:13:21] And there's particular buyers that are going to be better matched with me based on those things. So do you take those things into consideration when running these data models that is up to the client to do so we recommend it, but you need to have a salesperson who's been there long enough or has had enough transaction.

[00:13:38] Uh, for the model to be statistically relevant, that's the thing. So we rarely have that opportunity to work with people at that rate, uh, simply because they don't have the data per sales person you'd need someone who's like senior, who's sold a lot. Right. They've had a lot of history to be able to make that call otherwise you're, you're, it's just still an assumption at that point.

[00:13:55] You can make the guesses if you want to, but we usually recommend doing team-based because the leader of the team usually trains the team to have a similar approach. Uh, the manager. So it makes sense to do it. Team-based um, and to give you an idea of what the day-to-day looks like for a sales person is using more of a data-driven process, whether it's us or someone else doesn't matter.

[00:14:15] Uh, but you'll have these, uh, what I call our priority tiers based off of priority of the contact, how well they fit. Are they going to be able to build a relationship with you? This has nothing to do with whether, if they're ready to buy now or not. This has to do. Can they build a relationship with you and are they a fit to buy at some point, if they're ready to buy now, you're still just playing a lottery.

[00:14:36] You're throwing darts at a dartboard with a blindfold on and you get lucky every now and then that's just a fact people can decide not to buy simply because they had a bad day. Right? Uh, there's so many external influencers that there's no way to predict that accurately we're looking at is if they buy in six months or today, it doesn't matter.

[00:14:52] It's that you should be building a relationship with that person and continuously nurturing it because when they're ready to be. They'll call you and won't even go into the active looking phase. So the idea with the priority two years is that if you have a really good fit to top, right. Direct outreach multilevel omni-channel human touch do not use automated outreach methods like the next tier down as a high priority, not top direct outreach.

[00:15:15] Again, hyper-targeted cold calls, personalized emails, social engagement to achieve relevance at scale. Right? So a little bit lower touch process, a mid priority. Uh, targeted sequence and cadence automation, standard cold call outreach, but you're not pitching them. You're just trying to educate them. You're trying to build a relationship or at least start building relationship.

[00:15:35] And then the low priority leads. Uh, that's like a five to 10%. Automated messaging general marketing, collateral distribution engagement, because your chances of selling them are next to none every now and then, like I said, a blind squirrel finds a nut. So if they're that low of a fit and they want to buy it from you, they'll make that decision.

[00:15:50] Even if it's an automated garbage message, because they're generally not, uh, anything below that is a waste of your time. So not targeting any. Who's not a fit at all. If they're below that 5% range, but chances of them shooting up to a 90% are like astronomical, no matter how much time goes by. So you would just strip those people out of the database, put them in an offline database somewhere, throw them into a hard drive, whatever, if you feel like you need to keep them in your contact data, hoarder, just, it doesn't matter.

[00:16:18] Just throw them out. Yeah. Um, or, or even just put them in, in there specifically to say. These are people we don't contact because it's a waste of our time. You know, that's an interesting point that you make is that why don't we create anti persona lists for salespeople saying anybody who looks like.

[00:16:38] Don't sell it to them. Don't tell them that there needs to be more anti persona and anti sales training to understand who they shouldn't be targeting because the number of miss sells, especially in the SAS industry is disgusting. That's why the churn rates so high. That's why a product gets just missing.

[00:16:53] Um, if you miss sell a bunch of clients, it also affects your product and engineering team because their engineering solutions and features for people who aren't a fit in the first place we're going to churn. And the people who are the good fit for your solution are not getting heard because the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[00:17:09] If something's wrong, people complain and they're loud as hell about it. If something's right. And again, they would like to see some improvement. They keep their mouth shut. It's like a catch 22. You can't win that battle. So you have to be very careful with who you sell to. Well, it's it's it also creates a bigger problem.

[00:17:24] Right? Cause you get those. Occasional wins with the wrong person. And then you're like, Hey, we should target more people like this. And then more time and energy is spent on going after a certain persona or a certain type of client. That's the best fit. Exactly where my CRS had SAS companies between 200 to 500 size story came from out of a thousand of them.

[00:17:53] There was one that was a fake. Just one and you're going to call all of them and nurture all of them. That is that not absolutely fucking ridiculous.

[00:18:07] It's an uninformed decision, but that's it, it's that simple. They're not doing anything wrong. They're doing the best with what they have. Now, what do, what do you do if you're a company and let's say you are making decisions based on data, maybe they're working with somebody like you guys. Um, and they're using this for outbound.

[00:18:28] What did they do for inbound? What if they start getting leads on a regular basis? Let's say they get inbound leads on a regular basis and they know who they shouldn't be working with. And they know these leads that are coming in are not. What did they do? Literally don't talk to them in the B2B space.

[00:18:46] It's difficult. A lot of B2B companies don't do social advertising because we get a ton of inbound. That's absolutely irrelevant. And then you have like 10 sales teams dealing with all these people and you have to talk to them because they're inbound. When really, if you use a data-driven approach or a way to analyze these people, to see how well they fit, you don't have to make that mistake where, you know, talk to the people who are a fit that.

[00:19:06] Uh, there's one company it's owned by a very, very heavy marketing influencer out there that I won't name out of respect. Um, 6,000 inbound leads a week for a B2B service. That's a lot. Okay. Uh, out of those 6,060 of them, 6, 0 60 convert as. There are five sales teams, large sales teams that are working these leads, and it can't even do outbound because they're stuck working these leads and only 60 of them are closing.

[00:19:35] Think about the sales team's morale. Do you want to be there? No, you don't. Are you going to put me on? I even know from my own personal experience, right? Is the work that we do. We, we, we create a ton of content and we get a lot of inbound lanes. At vast majority of the inbound leads that we get are not qualified.

[00:19:55] They're not people that we should be working with they're tire kickers or their fans, or are people who just want to know what you do. Like people who are just curious and that's the end of that. So being able to analyze them and say, okay, here are the 60 people, there are the needles in the haystack, and then forget the rest of them, throw them into like a nurture sequence or an automated campaign or into a robot loop.

[00:20:15] Yeah. Or outsource that, have them talk to buy, buy an outsource team that so your company can focus on what matters. That's a pointed. A lot of people would have a hard time swallowing that. Right. Or getting on board with that. But I've actually had a similar experience where myself, where I reached out to a company that I was curious about what they did and they did some sort of review and.

[00:20:40] Said, Hey, sorry. We work with companies that are this, and it does not look like you'd be a good fit. Feel free to reach you back in the future. And you would think that might piss some people off. Um, but I actually appreciated them. Not wasting my time. Yeah. It's not just a waste of your time as a seller.

[00:20:54] It's the waste of the buyer's time. If they think they're a fit and you know, they're not a fit, you know that they're not a. And then you shouldn't be selling to them, do them that favor. If they get pissed, that's on their own volition. Don't forget that that even happened in like a week. I promise people's memories are horrible.

[00:21:09] They just be like, oh, screw that guy, whatever. And that's the end of that. They'll never think about it again. And if they say, oh, this person wouldn't sell to me. I mean, let's say that does get out there. And they start talking about that. You would get a lot of respect for not selling to someone who wasn't a fit.

[00:21:24] It would work the opposite of what you. All of the first rule of PR is that all PR is good PR right? All you have to do is manipulate the story to work to your vantage. But what you're actually doing is that you save that person time, money, and yourself, time and money. So you did them a favor. They just were not aware of the impact that it has on both the.

[00:21:45] Yeah. Somebody told me something one time and I don't know if they caught it on social or heard it directly, um, grant Cardon, whether you like him, whether you don't doesn't matter. Right. But it, somebody had asked him something around like, Hey, you get all these hate and people, you know, and he's like, I don't want people to like me.

[00:22:04] I just want people to. Th I, I feel the same way. Well, except I don't care if you know me or not. It's the same way for me in a sense. I don't care if you like me, or if you don't, if you don't walk away more educated with a new idea or with a drive to accomplish something, then I have failed as a human being.

[00:22:26] Hmm. It's an interesting perspective. Um, all right. So. Where can people get started? I mean, this is, this is, I think people that are listening, we have some sales leaders that are listening to like, man, this is interesting. Maybe we're spinning our wheels wasting our time. Um, how do we get started with something like this?

[00:22:49] Where can people connect with you? How could they get started with, you know, white rabbit and all that good stuff? Well, everybody's thinking it, but nobody's saying. Spinning wheels and wasting time, uh, because, uh, the investors of the board wool you're done. Uh, but yeah, that's kind of the point there is that if you want to get in touch with us, feel free to, uh, reach out to us on LinkedIn, anybody from white rabbit, Intel totally fine.

[00:23:11] Or you can go to the website, www dot white rabbit, And then if you add a forward slash request dash demo, if you want to see what the product's all about, you can do that. They're happy to help in any way that we can. And, uh, Yeah, you can see, you can hear more from, from myself and other professionals to, uh, over it down the rabbit hole podcast.

[00:23:28] I'm not trying to challenge your podcasts. Totally different perspective on everything. It's it's not actually all about sales. Um, but yeah, no, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. Totally fine. Ford slash V dash rev ops dash Hitman. Feel free. I'm usually open to a conversation, but please allow a 24 to 48 hour turnaround.

[00:23:47] For new connections, I will drop the links there in the show notes for everybody. One final question. I was just thinking, cause I think people might be thinking about this is how much data do they need to get started with building a model? Like how many wins, how many losses? So statistical relevance is 50 wins and 100 losses though.

[00:24:07] My recommendation is 100 wins and 200 losses. It's a one to two ratio when the. And we can measure anything. If it's not sales successful sales, we can look at the people who met with you, build a predictive model around who meets with you. We could build it around, uh, who was successful through a marketing campaign who clicked versus who opened it and didn't interact.

[00:24:27] So any situation where there's a positive and negative that involves contact records. We can build a predictive model and a persona around it and do predictions. Interesting. All right, well, thanks again, Rob. We'll include the links there in the show notes for everybody. If you enjoyed the episode today, please radish review.

[00:24:43] Share the show with your friends really does help us out, and we're always listening for your feedback as well. You can go to sales, and drop us a voice DM, and we'll get back to you. Hey, you stopped. That tells me you're serious about your own sales transformation. If you're tired of doing things the old way and want to get started in your journey with other people on the same path, head over to sales,, and crush your numbers on your leaderboard.

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