In this episode of The Sales Transformation with Collin Mitchell podcast, Collin talks to Travis Chappell, founder and CEO of Guestio and the host of the Build Your Network Podcast with Travis Chappell. Travis talks about how he found success as a commission-only door-to-door salesperson and how he left that lucrative world to go all-in on his podcasting dreams.
Travis talks about handling rejection like a pro not setting yourself up to fail, no matter how hard it gets. He also talks about building yourself a loyal audience by creating real value over the long-term through podcasting. He also introduces his company Guestio, which helps users find, book, and communicate with top guests and show hosts all inside one easy-to-use platform.
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Travis: "If you're a high performer, and you're in a sales environment, the more commission to me, the better. Because to me, all the other perks we're just distractions from how much commission I could potentially make. To me, it was like, yeah, you get a salary and a company car but that's because they're only paying you like 2% on this deal. I don't know if I wanna sacrifice that. Plus, you got a boss now. With a great salary comes great oversight and micro management."
Travis: "You put yourself in this negative feedback loop that just highlights the negative parts and then before you know it, you're talking yourself out of a sale before you're even getting through the first part of your pitch. The other person that just rejected you sold you into their rejection of you."
Travis: "Success is nothing but the ability to move from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. And that's never more true when you're knocking at a door and somebody tells you to f-off, and you have to shake it off and knock on their next-door neighbor's door without letting that previous encounter poison the first words out of your mouth."
Travis: "If you can get a thousand people who know, like, and trust you enough to support anything that you put out just because they know, like, and trust you that much, then you can future-proof your entire life. You can future-proof your revenue, future-proof your net-worth, your relationships, you can future-proof everything that you're working on."
Travis: "You cannot think about yourself and your quest to building true fans, if you want to build true fans. You have to turn your attention to those people and how you can help bring some sort of value to their lives."
Travis: "Joe Shmo podcaster, who works at 9 to 5 and puts out a podcast about business advice and is editing his show from 9 pm to 11:30 pm before he's got to get up tomorrow at 6 am, like that person is not making money regardless of what happens. And if they put in the blood, sweat, and tears to build the audience, which is the only asset in the entire transaction, then they should be the ones getting paid."
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[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell. And this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.
[00:00:24] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation. Very excited for today's guest. I got my man, Travis Chappell is the founder over and CEO over at GHESKIO. It's a new software that connects high level guests with high-level content creators. And he's the host of the top rated show. Build your network.
[00:00:43] In addition to being featured in entrepreneur NASDAQ, Yahoo finance, and ReadWrite. Travis has also been featured in Forbes as a top 10 podcasts that will change. Alongside Joe Rogan, Gary Vaynerchuk, Tim Ferris, and others. Travis, welcome to the show. Hey, what's up bro? Thanks so much for having me. It's been a while.
[00:01:02] Yeah. And too long and too long. Tell me about what's going on with you. Yeah, no, uh, we just, uh, I just had the pleasure of being on, on your view. You interviewing me on your show. And so now we're doing a back-to-back, which is always fun. Um, But, uh, now it's all about you. So take us back a little bit, you know, where did your professional journey sales journeys?
[00:01:27] Yeah, so for me it was, uh, in college. I was, I kind of grew up in this just long story, short religious bubble, kind of a cult type deal. Uh, so I was always on a path to be in full-time ministry. When I, when I was growing up, it was, I graduated kindergar. On the same campus that I graduated college from. So from the time that I was five, till the time I was 21, I went to the same exact place for school every day.
[00:01:57] And then that was also where we had church on Sundays and we had so many on Saturday. So almost literally. Sunday Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Um, from the time I was three to 21 was spent on this, this one place. And so the college on the campus was purely ministerial and I was getting a degree.
[00:02:14] I did get a degree, double major in Bible and church ministries. I was going to be in the, in the ministry when I graduated. Uh, and then what ended up happening was my junior year of college. I got a door to door sales job and. Frankly just cause like I always had that kind of entrepreneurial edge. I always wanted to make a little bit extra money.
[00:02:34] So I was doing landscape. I'm a landscaping business. My senior year of high school, I was selling stuff to kids in elementary school. I always just kind of had that innately in me. So when I saw this door to door gig, it was, it was like, oh, like my, my, my friend showed me his paycheck, you know? And at the time it was like a crazy note.
[00:02:51] It was like, it was literally like 900 bucks or something like that. But what relative to me. Uh, the summer before he couldn't hang out with us at all, it was one of my friends. We'd go hang out all the time in the summertimes. He couldn't hang out with us at all because he was working two full-time jobs that summer, literally 80 hour work weeks.
[00:03:07] And he goes this page. Is bigger than, uh, like what my one week paycheck is bigger than both of my other jobs combined two week paycheck. And that was like, it caught my attention. And I was like, okay, this sounds interesting to me, you know? And, uh, so I started door to door sales and by the time I graduated college, I really.
[00:03:28] Realized that I enjoyed business and I enjoyed sales more than I enjoyed the stuff like that whole year. I was also interning on and on the weekends at a church doing stuff that was going to be doing the rest of my life or. And I started to realize that like, man, I really don't really like doing what I'm doing on the weekends.
[00:03:44] I'm actually looking forward to getting back to school on Monday so that I can go work my job because I just enjoyed it. And, uh, and it paid pretty well, you know? So I, uh, graduated college, decided not to go into ministry and I didn't have any other skills at the time, you know, of a Bible degree, doesn't really get you many job opportunities.
[00:04:07] Um, but especially one that's unaccredited, which mine happened to also be unaccredited. So it was quite literally a worthless piece of paper in terms of getting me a career. Uh, so the only thing that I knew how to do. Was door-to-door sales and door to door in particular, because I also tried to get regular sales jobs, but nobody would hire me, I think probably inexperienced, maybe my age or something, but, um, it always blew my mind.
[00:04:30] I couldn't get any sort of these freaking entry-level sales jobs. So like my alternative was like, what am I going to do? Go work an office job. $35,000 a year working for some a-hole that I don't respect that tells me like where I have to stand and sit and all this other stuff it's like, or I could go do this a hundred percent commission door to door thing, and have control of my income and, uh, add control over my schedule and things like that.
[00:04:52] So that was what I opted for. Um, did that, uh, for, for awhile did, uh, started indoor solar, moved into alarm systems and then eventually into water purification before. Wow. All right. So not just door to door, but commission only door to door an only bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always have to eat, you know? Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:15] Uh, there's, there's a, there's a very, it's a very rare breed of those that are willing to bet on themselves enough to take any commission only job. Yeah. Yeah. It just always, it just always made sense to me, man, if you're, if you're a high performer and you're in a sales environment, the better, the more commissioned to me.
[00:05:37] Because to me, like all the other, to me, all the other perks and things were just distractions from how much commission I could potentially make. You know what I mean? It was like, yeah, you get a salary and a company car, but that's because they're only paying you like 2% on this deal. You know what I mean?
[00:05:53] It's like, I don't know if I want to sacrifice that. Plus you got a boss now, like with, with great salary comes, you know, Great oversight and micromanagement. So, you know, good luck with that. I just, I was never somebody that liked people telling me what to do. So, um, you know, just that one thing was enough for me to be like, nah, I think I'll just do this a hundred percent commission thing, which is crazy in retrospect, but made sense to me at the time.
[00:06:18] Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And you had a long stint of doing various different door to door. Uh, And so, you know, I've had a few people on that. I've done door to door, um, but not a lot that stick with it for that length of time. So you must've been, you must have been good. Yeah, it paid too well, man, I couldn't like, I couldn't find anything else that would pay me that much with the little amount of work that I wanted to do, if that makes sense.
[00:06:47] Cause I knew after the first year, like the first year I broke six figures, a hundred percent commission door to door, I was like 22 and I thought it was on top of the world and then quickly realized. Six-figures isn't that much money. And I had a lot bigger dreams for my life and the door to door, probably wasn't going to be the vehicle to get me there.
[00:07:05] Um, and so from that point forward, it was like a quest of figuring out what I was going to do next. But in that case, I still had to pay my bills. Like I bought a house when I was like 21, I saw the mortgage to pay. I still had like, you know, cell phone bills and utilities and all the other stuff that comes along with being a freaking adult, you know?
[00:07:25] So I, uh, I couldn't just like stop selling. And there was nothing else that I could find that would pay me that much money for, like I said, the little amount of work that I was willing to do cause I was working like three, four hour work days. It was just that I would go out from like 4:00 PM to 7:00 PM, knock on some doors and I would sell deals.
[00:07:42] And you know, when, when I was done, when I was in water purification, the margins were just so good. The deals that we had worked out with some of the sub-dealers were just so good that, you know, I could knock doors. Make 20 grand in a couple of weeks and then take the rest of the month off and focus on trying to figure out what I wanted to do next.
[00:07:57] You know what I mean? So it just, there was nothing else that could give me that sort of potential. So I just kept doing door to door. I was, I'm almost change. I think that I think there might be some people listening right now that are like, man, I thought I needed to get into tech, B2B tech, SAS. Maybe I should be doing door to door, door to door water, man.
[00:08:19] So that's the thing is like, I don't, I have a lot of friends that make a lot of money in door to door. I just wasn't for me. I wanted to get into online. Cause I wanted to be able to travel and make money while I was gone and stuff like that. But out of my friends, dude, they, they still, they, they knocked doors.
[00:08:32] They've been doing it. Decade plus they're probably not going to stop and they make good money doing what they do in, in S in low, you know, work hours in terms of the actual hours of them knocking on doors. So, I mean, if you're, if you're willing to do it and you find the right opportunity with the right product, the right service, that gives good enough commissions, like there's a lot of, there's a lot of meetings.
[00:08:54] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, a lot of people have a hard time just picking up the phone, but knocking on somebody's door, interrupting them in the middle of their dinner. Like that. That's a, that's a hard task, you know, sometimes you run into trouble on the phone, you can just hang up and bail, you know, but you say the wrong thing standing in front of somebody that's in a bad mood.
[00:09:17] Cause you don't know what happened. Not a lot of options on your decks. There's so many just crazy experiences that happened in five years of knocking on doors. Just disgruntled people, irritated people, people cussing you out. People threatening you, people that say they have a gun behind the door. Just like crazy stuff that, that happened on doors, but it always made for good storytelling at the end of the day.
[00:09:43] You know, curious if the door says no solicitation, D D not. Oh, yeah. All right. Yeah, dude, like I'm not, I'm not selling anything. I'm just here to let you know about this program that we have going on. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, uh, well, two things, first question I have is what do you think, um, you learned through that experience of learning on doors that, you know, served as good life lessons or just, you know, sales entrepreneurs' skills that sort of molded.
[00:10:16] You as a person it's almost unlimited in term, like almost every skill that I would say that I've acquired over the last decade has it has its foundation in my door to door days, a hundred percent. Uh, but if I were to pick one, just to pull one practically out for your audience, it's overcoming rejection in, because I think that that's.
[00:10:40] So are you familiar with guy Roz and how I built. Yeah, the podcast. So guy was on a book tour. Um, I don't know, maybe a year, year and a half ago now. Cause he came out with a book called how I built this, which is the same name of his podcast. And it's an NPR podcast they get they've probably had, I don't know, over a quarter billion downloads at this point, massive show.
[00:11:00] And he's talked to some of the world's most successful founders in tech, startup entrepreneurs and people that are, you know, running unicorns and things like that. And people were asking him on his book tour, like, Hey, you've interviewed all these crazy people. What's common denominators. What are the things that are, that are, um, uh, that you find true across the board with all the people you've talked to?
[00:11:21] And I listened to probably four or five of his interviews on different people's shows. And every time he was asked that question, he gave the same exact answer. And that answer was, they were all able to overcome. A few of them even started on doors. The CEO of Calendly was selling alarms. And now he's running like a $40 billion calender tech startup.
[00:11:43] Um, but, but that was his answer is that, is that it's, it's the ability to be able to take a no and move on and find the yes. And he was like that, that ability in and of itself is hard to, it's hard to train into somebody and it's hard to. Uh, it's hard to develop in somebody, but if you have that skill, he said, that was like the number one thing that he saw across the board with everybody that he talked to.
[00:12:06] So if I had to pull one thing out, it's gotta be that. Yeah. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense because I mean, some people just, I don't know if they're not built for it, but like I have the tendency to just make it too. Dang. Right. Like somebody is not rejecting you or say no, because you suck or you're not good enough.
[00:12:28] Right. Maybe they just don't fully understand the value or they just literally don't need what you have. Um, and it's, you know, once you can learn how to like, get your teeth kicked in enough times and not let it really affect you in a, in a, in a negative way, because if that no, or that rejection does it's then you know, a negative effect.
[00:12:49] And then in the next call, in the next presentation, in the next pitch, whatever is doing, you know, if you carry that with you. So not only does it hurt and it sting, right, but you got to like recover fast, not let it really bother you and move on so that you don't then put yourself in a position to get another.
[00:13:07] No, because you weren't bringing the best version of yourself in that interim. A hundred percent, man. Yeah. You get, you can put yourself in this negative feedback loop that just highlights the negative parts. And then before you know, it, you're talking yourself out of a sale before you're even like getting through the first part of your pitch, you know, because you feel, you, you, you feel so on board, like the other person that just rejected, you sold you into their rejection of you.
[00:13:36] And so now to protect yourself, You assume the next person's going to reject you. And so you give them an out at the very beginning of the conversation that allows them to reject you without feeling as hurt from it. And, uh, and the people are going to take that out every time. And that's why you have such a huge turnover rate in like telemarketing or door to door sales or network marketing or MLMs, like any of these types.
[00:13:59] So, you know, really cold hundred percent commissioned production-based, um, sales organizations. You just have huge turnover because most people can't make it through that negative feedback loop. They can't, you know, I was talking on your show about this quote, uh, that successes is nothing but failure. Uh, it is nothing but the ability to move from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
[00:14:21] And that's never more true than when you're on doors. When, when, when you're, when you're knocking on a door and somebody tells you to F off and you have to shake it off, go knock on their next door neighbor's door without letting that previous encounter, uh, poison the first words out of your mouth and ruin your chances of being able to.
[00:14:44] You know, compound, uh, your sales for that day. So it, it just teaches you that it's like, it's a, like, it's a training ground. It's, it's it's bootcamp for a rejection in a, in a really big way. Cause now like it doesn't, it just doesn't phase me as much when people tell me no, at this point, you know, cause I've heard it all.
[00:15:01] I've heard. No in the most colorful me. Energetic ways that you can imagine. So like at this point it's just like, all right, cool. Well, we'll find somebody else. There's like billions of people in the world, so I don't have to sell them all. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to me about transitioning out of, you know, door to door, you know, w what did you do?
[00:15:24] Did you still do door to door for a bit, and I'm genuinely curious, was it tough for you to give up the door to door? Yeah. Yeah. So what ended up happening is I started a podcast. So after I had that, like Goodyear and door to door, and, but I knew I wanted to do something different. I basically stopped for like six months.
[00:15:43] Um, because I was just like, I'm sick of knocking doors. I've been doing it for a couple of years at that point, you know, part-time in college, but then. I was just like, man, I don't want to be doing this anymore. I stopped doing it and I didn't know what to do at that point. Like I said, I still had a mortgage to pay.
[00:15:56] I couldn't just do nothing. Um, so I was the first time in my life dove into personal development. You started reading books, listening to audio books. And that's what, the first time that I found podcasts. And after a while listening to podcasts, I thought, you know, it'd be cool to start one of these things.
[00:16:10] So I started podcasting had no idea how to monetize one. I had no idea what offer I was going to create. What. Well, I was just like, this seems like a S a positive step in the right direction, and this might lead to something good. And, uh, so I started making a little bit of money with the podcast, but I was definitely more in debt than I was making, because I invested probably like 40 grand into my podcast the first year, mainly through like coaching and mentorship and masterminds and education and events and flights and hotels and all this other stuff.
[00:16:39] And this new game. And I was trying to get myself into. You were all in on podcasting, huh? From, from land, bro. Yeah. Like it was, it was not a, we'll see how this works and maybe it'll work out. It was like, I'm gonna do this until this works. And then I'm going to, you know, figure out whatever after that. But like for now this is a hundred percent what I'm doing.
[00:16:58] So, uh, really just jumped, jumped all in at that time. And, uh, and then I was wanting to make the transition to doing a full-time, but I just wasn't making enough money from it yet. I found out that people started, that people were asking me how to create podcasts. So I started doing a little bit of podcast coaching.
[00:17:13] And at first it was like, you make 500 bucks and it's like, did somebody just pay me for a half hour of my time? Like, that's crazy. You know? And so the next time it's a thousand bucks, then it's 2000 bucks and now I have a few clients and now I'm making a little bit of money. Now I have a mastermind and like the income starting to build on itself, but it was still like, Knocking doors.
[00:17:30] I had a team at the time that I was trying to train to go knock doors. And, uh, um, it ended up being in this kind of like half in half out position where I wanted the team to keep working, but I was no longer willing to be the leader with them in the field. And that just, it doesn't work in it. Sales industry or environment, but especially not in door to door, because like, if people are going out and experiencing the pain of door knocking, they want to see their leader.
[00:17:54] We're crushing it with them and still constantly showing them every single day that it's possible. And so that ended up just not working out the, the, the reps that were working for me at the time, basically all decided to leave and go work somewhere else because they could sense that I was kind of half.
[00:18:08] And, um, and so at that point it was basically like, well, I can either go back into this door to door thing and try to build a new team and train more people and commit to it again for another period of time. Or I can abandon ship door to door and just force myself to go all in on this podcasting thing and figure it out and make it work.
[00:18:25] So the first time in my life, I, uh, took a massive pay cut from door to door and got into podcasting. My income probably plummeted from, you know, a multi six-figure income to. Less than less than six figures for sure. But probably like five, six grand a month or something like that, that I was making. We downsized our house.
[00:18:45] We moved in with my brother-in-law and an apartment. We like cut my, my, uh, my monthly fees from being like 3000 bucks a month at the house. We were living in two, splitting a two bedroom with my, with my brother-in-law. 500 bucks a month. I was just like, totally focused on how do we generate income here in this online world?
[00:19:05] And, uh, so that was, that was the last time I ever knocked on doors, man. That was, that was a 2008 teen when, uh, all that went down. So I'd been about a year in podcasting and then finally went full-time about a year in and then stopped, stopped doing door to door. And I have not have not been back on doors since that point.
[00:19:26] You ever wasn't you ever want to go? Yeah.
[00:19:33] Uh, it was just a weird, crazy transition. I wish I would have handled it differently, to be honest. I think I could've handled it better, um, uh, in salvage some, some great relationships because of it, but, you know, you live and learn and, uh, if anything looking back, I'm just really thankful that it happened because it, it forced me, it forced me out of my comfort zone to detach from the thing that I was holding onto as a safety net and forced me to go all in on this, on this, you know, in this online.
[00:19:58] Wow. All right. So after investing all this money into, you know, going all in, on online world, all in, on your podcast, selling your house, moving out, like I, me, there must've been some moments where you're like, man, I don't know about this thing. I could just give up and go back to knocking on doors. Yeah. I think that happened this year.
[00:20:25] you know, it, it's just a, it's a, it's a brand new thing. So I do to, it happened all the time. I was doubting myself constantly. Um, and it was mainly like, I, I felt bad for my wife, you know, cause she was just kind of along for the ride and she's always supported me in that, but it just didn't like when she saw how much money I could make knocking doors, it didn't compute to her of why I wouldn't want to do that.
[00:20:44] You know, which I totally get and have complete empathy for. Um, except for when I go, well, why don't you. You know what I mean? Then it's like, oh, well I don't want to go knock doors or I can't do that. And it's like, well, exactly. Like I don't want to do it either. And I don't know how to explain it. It was the first, it was so weird, man.
[00:20:59] It was the first time in my life where I chose, I chose what I wanted to do. Even though I knew it was going to make me significantly less money than the thing that I was already good at. Um, but I, for whatever reason have always been more of a long-term thinker, uh, I'm always like, I really try to make decisions based on what my future self will thank me for.
[00:21:22] Rather than making decisions on what feels good right now. And if that means sacrificing a bunch of income, uh, to try to put myself in a position, to work in a space that I think is going to have a much more attractive long-term benefit, then I'm going to do that. You know, it sucks for a little bit, but it always gets better if you're willing to put in.
[00:21:45] So question for that. Um, what is it that kept you going, right? The tough through the tough times, making the sacrifices, what was it about, you know, maybe the podcasting space specifically that you just knew, you know, I'm going to bet on this. I'm going to bet on myself. I'm going to make the sacrifice and I'm sticking with it and making it.
[00:22:07] For podcasting specifically, it was really related to this concept of having a thousand true fans. I'm not sure if you've heard of that or read anything from Kevin Kelly on, uh, his concept of a thousand true fans, but when I really grasped what that meant. To me, it was just like, uh, I'm all in on this. I don't, I'm going to commit to it.
[00:22:25] Even if it takes me 20 years, it still makes sense to me as a use of my time. Uh, which essentially basically comes down to, if you can get a thousand people who know, like, and trust you enough to support. Anything that you put out just because they know like, and trust you that much, then you can future proof your entire life you've reach proof, your revenue future-proof, uh, your, your net worth your relationships.
[00:22:51] You can future proof, everything that you're working on. If you have a thousand true fans, not a thousand followers, a thousand listeners, like a thousand trucks. Fans of what you do. I think if you have a hundred true fans, you can build yourself a pretty damn good life. If you get to a thousand, you the sky's the limit.
[00:23:07] And so a perfect example of this and I'll use the most exaggerated example just to drive the point home is you look at the rock, the rock has over 200 million followers now on Instagram and he makes, you know, he's the highest paid actor. I think. 2019 and 2020 or 2020 and 2021, like he's been highest paid actor or at least in the top five for the last, like four or five years running.
[00:23:34] Um, but you look at all the money that he makes from acting. It's like, I don't know, 20, 30 million a year, maybe something like that as like the highest paid actor. And I'm not trying to downplay that. Like, it's a small amount of money, but like when you look at the other things that he's. It's pennies because of the true fan base that he has.
[00:23:56] He has obviously significantly more than a thousand true fans. He probably has more like a million true fans. You know, it's probably like a hundred to one is probably a good, it's probably a good ratio to think about it. Like if you have like a hundred million fans or whatever, like a million of them are really true fans, you know, maybe 10 million, but like someone like the rock is, has easy seven figures when it comes to.
[00:24:17] People that are just hardcore, true fans of whatever he does. So you look at his influence and then look at some of the businesses that he did. He has these big collaborations with under Armour. Any time he drops a new shoe, he drops a pair of headphones. He drops a hoodie it's sold out in an hour and a half.
[00:24:38] With just him posting on his Instagram going like it's live. They don't have to spend any money to acquire those customers. They're just going to buy because it's the rock. And no other reason, they're just going to trust that it's good because it's the rock. He launched a tequila company, which super competitive space he has absolutely zero past experience and tequila, except for maybe drinking a lot of it, which everybody has that experience.
[00:25:01] You know what I'm saying? So he launches a spirits company. And it became the most successful launch of any spirits company in history. Not just tequila brands. Like, you know what I mean? Like any spirit, the most successful launch of any spirits company history, they sold like six or 700,000 cases in their first year of tequila.
[00:25:23] You compare that to George Clooney, I think is Casa Migos or something, whatever his brand was, George Clooney's brand, they sold like 150,000 cases or 200,000 cases in a year. And that brand sold for over $1 billion at a hundred, hundred and 50,000 cases. My point in saying. Is like, if the rock sells Terra mana tomorrow, he'll make more money on tequila than all of his acting producing, directing credits combined.
[00:25:53] Yeah. That doesn't happen because he's a good actor that happens because he has a loyal true fan base. That's willing to buy literally anything he puts out. He releases Zoe is energy, drink the number one fastest growing energy drink in the market. Like. Anything that he touches is instantly successful because he has a built-in distribution engine that will buy anything.
[00:26:15] He tells them to buy that to me is the end game of podcasting. That's the longterm of building an audience. And once I really grasped that, I was like, well, logically to. It makes sense that even if it takes me 25 years to build this audience, you know, I started at age 24. If I have to wait till I'm 50, till I have like 10,000 people that are willing to do anything that we're willing to at least try any product or service that I launched or something like that, like that's still a great retirement plan.
[00:26:44] You know what I mean? Like I just, it just, once I really caught the, the, the. Uh, the power of what that really meant, you know, just to bring it down to like a, more of a localized example to a buddy of mine. Pat Flint runs a podcast called smart passive income. Um, they've gotten over 120, 130 million downloads on the show.
[00:27:03] His blog, uh, gets. I don't know the exact numbers, probably over a million a month in web traffic to his blog. He's got a YouTube channel that gets like 300,000 subscribers. Um, he's got a really loyal fan base and obviously it's nothing compared to the rock, but whenever pat launches something. It's instantly successful, at least to a certain extent.
[00:27:25] He's got multiple wall street journal best-selling books that have been, that have sold the tens of thousands. Uh, he launched a physical product, which he's never done before. He launched a physical, uh, tripod for vloggers and launched it on Kickstarter. Their goal is to raise $100,000 on Kickstarter to go get the molds made for these tripods.
[00:27:44] Um, their goal is $100,000 in 30. Within 48 hours, they raised over a hundred thousand dollars. By the end of the 30 days, they raised almost $500,000 from people that were pre-ordering the tripod before they even built it just so they could go build it. That doesn't happen because the tripod was that good.
[00:28:02] Was it a cool product? Yeah. Was it a cool idea? Yeah. Did it solve a problem? Yes, but there's plenty of products that solve problems that never get. Yeah. The reason that they raised a half a million dollars in 60 days on Kickstarter, 30 days on Kickstarter, whatever the timeframe was, has nothing to do with that.
[00:28:18] And it has everything to do with the fact that he was pat Flynn and he had a built-in distribution engine called his audience that knows likes and trusts. I asked him, I was like, bro, how many people you think bought this that are never going to use it? He was like, I don't even know. I've had people reach out to me and just say, yeah, I bought three of them just to support you, but I don't even have own a video camera.
[00:28:35] So like, I can't even drive on, I'll just give them away to somebody, but I just wanted to support you because of everything you've done for me, like he's added that much value to his community, that they were willing just to spend 300 bucks on some random tripods that they're never going to use just to be like, I hope this does well for you, pat.
[00:28:49] You know that many people don't even exist. I mean, the tripod doesn't even one, it doesn't even exist yet. Two, they're never going to use it. And three, they don't even know when they're going to get it either. Right, right. And they just give it to him. But it's because he's added so much value to their lives, that he, they trust him to deliver whatever it is he's saying that he's going to deliver.
[00:29:10] So it doesn't matter what it is. It's inconsequential. And it's the same thing with the rock is the same thing with Ryan Reynolds, with Mitt mobile and his, uh, his aviation gin brand. It's all these people that are launching stuff. Grant Cardon with Cardone capital, you know, Cardon capital. I talked, uh, Elena on the sh on my show, like two days ago, I was just talking with Elena.
[00:29:28] She said, they're at $4.8 billion. Now in assets, under management, they have like 13,000 units in their, in their, in their fund. None of that would have been possible. If it weren't grant Cardone, you can't just start a fund that takes non-accredited investors and raise as much capital and buy as many assets as grant was able to do.
[00:29:46] He was telling he was, uh, he was saying. Uh, he got an apartment building deal because the guy that was the main point of contact on the sell side. His son had been following grant for like five years and told his dad that you need to make sure that you sell this deal to grant because he's awesome. And he does all this, and here's what he does.
[00:30:10] And his dad didn't know, didn't know who he was, but his son loved him and he was one of his true fans. And so he was able to acquire this like 500 unit a class property that's being bid on by hedge funds. Like. Freaking Blackstone and some of the largest, multi DECA billion dollar funds in the world. And he gets the deal because somebody listened to his podcast for five years.
[00:30:31] You know what I mean? Like this is the power of a true fan. This is the power of building an audience. And once I really understood that principle, I was like, like I said, even it takes me 20 years. It still makes sense. As you say. Yeah. And so, yeah, no, but I appreciate the examples, right? So people can really grasp the concept of, well, what does it mean to have a true fan?
[00:30:54] You know, what can that do for me? Um, but I'm just thinking of people that are listening to this right now, and I'm sure they probably think, well, okay, how do we get started with building true fans and how do I measure, you know, how many true fans I have. Yeah. Like you have a goal of having a thousand true fans, right?
[00:31:15] Like, have you hit your thousand true fans or beyond that? Has the goal moved? How do you, how do you keep track? Like how do you know when you hit a thousand true fans yet? So your point, I should probably be more meticulous about it. Um, I, I would say I have probably less than a hundred true fans. True fans.
[00:31:34] You know what I'm saying? There's a big difference between somebody that follows my stuff and likes an Instagram post and somebody that is going to invest into whatever I launch. Um, uh, but the way that you build true fans is number one first and foremost. You cannot think about yourself and your quest to building true fans.
[00:31:55] If you want to build true fans, like you have to turn your attention to those people and how you can help bring some sort of value to their lives. Um, value can exist in different forms, right? Like the rock doesn't provide financial advice he provides. He provides maybe, maybe a feeling of, of safety. If you grew up watching his movies or his performances or whatever, and maybe there's a feeling of nostalgia that you get when you watch a new movie of his, or, you know, maybe you're watching him on a movie with Kevin Hart and it makes you laugh.
[00:32:29] And that, that laugh is brings a smile to your face. That's still value. Like value can be entertainment, entertainment can be value. But chances are, if you're listening to this, you're probably in sales or business or entrepreneurship in some way. So probably the way that your going to accomplish this is through direct value.
[00:32:46] Addition to the people's lives that are around you to the people's lives, who listen to your content that you're putting out. Um, That is the direct correlation to influence value creates, influence. Think about anybody that's had any sort of influence over you and your entrepreneurial career. It's always started with value.
[00:33:03] They helped you with something and most of the time it was for free, or they didn't ask for anything in return. It was a mentor that gave you some advice. It was somebody that was willing to help you. Tweak your sales pitch a little bit. And then you saw that tweak in your sales pitch lead to an additional $5,000 in revenue for you that month on your, on your, on your commission paycheck or whatever.
[00:33:24] Like that value is what gets people to. Allow you to continue to influence their lives because the value creates trust, which breeds influence. Um, so going back to the grant Cardone example, he has, uh, you know, his, his training program, his sales training program, like he earned trust and influence with the people that were taking that course because they saw a direct.
[00:33:49] Uh, correlation to their revenue growth and the training that they put their sales reps through when they got enlisted in Cardon. You like that value is what created the influence. That would then when, as soon as grant launched, launched his fund, he had hundreds or thousands of people that were eager to give him money because he helped them make it to begin with.
[00:34:11] Right. So how, like who else you were going to trust to handle the money that you made other than the person. Who helped you make the money to begin with? You know what I'm saying? Like he earned that trust and that influence over time through adding value to the lives of those people always come back to the Zig Ziglar quote.
[00:34:29] You can have anything in life that you want, if you help enough people get what they want. And so you have to turn your attention to like, who am I helping? What am I helping them do? And how much value does that add to their lives? And when you're first starting out, that answer is not very much, not very many.
[00:34:43] And, uh, and it's going to be a slow, a slow roll to get going, you know, Yeah. A lot of one-on-one time and probably not a lot of one too many times, you're probably going to beat your head against the wall and be like, why am I not just doing this other thing that makes me way more money? You know? And it's like, it's not about right now.
[00:34:59] It's not about 2022. It's about 2032 it's. So that 2032, you don't got to go knock on another door and get another deal. It's they're all coming to you because you have influence that you've built through value creation over a decade. Well, I mean, this kinda helps me understand a little bit better about getting.
[00:35:21] Right. So I want to talk a little bit about guests. DEO. Lots of our listeners are podcasters. Right? So, um, tell us a little bit about guests and now I think I full circle understand, right? Like your health. It's the hardest thing for a lot of podcasts, right? Is to figure out how the heck am I going to get this thing to make money?
[00:35:38] How can I at least just get even just my cost covered of what it's costing me to do this thing. Right? Like usually that's like goal one, like how does this not cost me any money to do right. Um, but. You're basically helping podcasters. You're creating a tremendous amount of value for them by giving them, you know, a very easy way to monetize their show when they may not really know how to get started.
[00:36:06] And that's a tremendous amount of value that you guys. Please. Tell me a little bit about why you started guests. Yo, you know what that's been like? Sure. So guests, you actually started as the opposite of what we have, what our current mission is, meaning that the reason that we started it was supposed to be more like a cameo for podcasters.
[00:36:24] Like if you, if you wanted to interview this really high level high profile person, you could go to guest DEO and pay them directly and get the money. Uh, and then what ended up happening was over a year, year and a half of testing and tweaking and making iterations, getting feedback. We figured out that most people that were willing to pay were actually more interested in paying to go, go get themselves booked on podcasts rather than to book guests on their podcast, which also increased.
[00:36:51] Total addressable market, you know, by like a hundred X there's way more small business owners who operate online that want to get booked on podcasts. Then there are pod-casters who can afford to pay a thousand, 2,003,000 bucks for an interview for somebody to show. So, uh, the, the reason that I created guest was actually for that purpose, it was to give access to high-level guests for podcasters.
[00:37:13] Now it's become more, give access to high level shows to people who want. To be a guest on those shows. And so when we decided to make that. I wanted to do things differently because I've been a podcast or for years, we get dozens of bad pitches in our inbox, every single week from agencies on the book, their clients, on our shows.
[00:37:34] And, um, and I started responding cause we would have, you know, 20 people on a wait list for three spots. So I started responding and being like, Hey, why don't you use. Uh, pay 500 bucks or whatever. And most of the time it was met with this kind of disdain, you know, to be like, how dare you charge? You know?
[00:37:52] And I was like, it's my audience. Like, I like you, you as an agency owner have, if you especially don't have a podcast, you have no idea how much work effort, energy, money I've invested into growing the audience to the point that I've gotten it to. And you just want me to bring on your, your client totally for free.
[00:38:10] Even though I know that that person's paying you upwards of 500, 600 bucks to get onto my show, bro. I found out one time, uh, because this guy ended up becoming a client of mine. Um, uh, I sent him 500 bucks. I was like, all right, cool. I'll, I'll do it for 500 bucks. And so the agency I was working with, they're like, okay, great.
[00:38:28] Let's do it. So they paid me the 500 bucks and I was like, okay, cool, skip the line fee. You know, we brought them on, build a relationship with them. He becomes a client. I find out like, The agency that booked that interview, they charged him $3,500 to come onto my show and they paid me $500 of it. And I was just like, this is the reason why I want to start something that's more transparent because look, I'm fine with a booking agency making a connection and taking a fee from it.
[00:38:54] But your fee should not be like a six X of the fee. Is being pitched from the podcast hosts. That's just bad business in, and it's a little bit of wild, wild west. Like people don't really know, you know, how much is a right price to pay for a show. Exactly. Is should I pay to go on this show? Right. Um, what's fair.
[00:39:16] What's not right. Is, are the numbers true? Like, is this even the right show for me? Like, there's still just a lot of people that people are just reading. Unsure about. Yeah. Yeah. So that's basically what we decided to do when we made the pivot was like, we need to normalize this idea of paying podcasters for the audiences that they've, that they've built.
[00:39:38] And we're kind of talking about this on my show, but I think the problem came in the fact that podcasts got Scott coupled in with PR in terms of, yeah. They got coupled with these like free articles and these earned media appearances, which in media, most of the time, an earned appearance as much better than a, to.
[00:39:58] Uh, because usually it's done by a journalist who maybe is a staff writer. It's going to get more eyeballs. The, uh, the, the link is a, um, a do follow link instead of these crappy back links. Like there, there's a lot of reasons to do earned PR and press, but if you switch over to podcasts, it's not the same thing.
[00:40:19] And they're treated as the same thing, probably just because podcasts are new when people don't know where to play. In my opinion. If you want to be a guest on a bunch of shows, you should look at it like a paid media opportunity and not as a, a press opportunity. And mainly it's because like, you look at a contributor to a Forbes, you know, like a Forbes contributor or entrepreneur contributor.
[00:40:42] Forbes and entrepreneur are doing just fine, whether you pay them or don't pay them. But like Joe Schmo podcaster who works a nine to five and puts out a podcast about business advice and is editing his show from 9:00 PM to 11:30 PM. Before he's got to get up and go to work tomorrow at 6:00 AM. Like that person isn't making money regardless of what happens.
[00:41:07] And if they've put in the blood, sweat and tears to build the audience, which is the only asset in the entire transaction, then they should be the ones getting paid for the arts, at least getting paid a portion for that audience. You know what I mean? So like, like booking agencies solve a problem. They, they do a done for you service a done-for-you solution.
[00:41:25] We were talking about this before you offer that, we offer that a lot of people offer that. I'm not shitting on the idea of doing a booking agency. I'm just simply suggesting that maybe it's a good idea to put in a little bit of a budget to give these show hosts a little bit of a return for all the blood, sweat, and tears they've put into crafting the only asset that's being exchanged here.
[00:41:46] You know what I mean? Facebook built a massive audience with a social network and then they monetize through their ad platform. So you can pay Facebook money to get in front of the audience that they have. This is the same thing. It's just, you're doing it for this podcast. Or they may only get 600 downloads an episode.
[00:42:02] Um, but you still want to go on their show and you still might sell a $10,000 offer to somebody in their audience. So if that's your end goal, then you should be willing to pay to get in front of that audience. That's just, that's just my opinion. And I, I think that a lot of podcasts are going to start doing that.
[00:42:18] The more, the more that, you know, companies like us and are continuing to pay them for the, for the guests. It's like. Well, you know, call them, like we brought you some, we've brought you some guests from our concierge service. Have you looked at any of our guests and gone, like what a joke? Like I would never bring this person on my show.
[00:42:32] I mean, that's the thing I would say. Right? Cause there's similar services that do this matching by, but they're very. Um, and the biggest issue that I've seen with some of the other, I don't want to call them out by name, but I'm sure everybody knows the ones we're talking about. If they've, you know, explored this space is the quality, the qualities is, is horrible.
[00:42:53] You know, if you have a credit card, you're a great podcast guest and you got somebody to create you some good stuff. And, uh, and you're just getting a bunch of, you know, cold, crappy pitches. On the platform that you would have normally got in your email. Right? That's the problem with a lot of them get bad pitches.
[00:43:11] Yeah. Yeah. And so, Hey, I'll be real. Like, I mean, the first week of using guest DEO, I made 2,500 bucks in a week for my show. And there are people I would have had on any way. Exactly. That's the point. That's my point though, is like, when we go to our clients, like, we're, we're not, there's so much ego man, like, and I'm sure you run into this.
[00:43:30] There's so much ego where people are like, well, I would never, I, you know, You know, th they should, they should be paying me. Why am I paying to go? You know, it's just like, look, if that's your, if that's your attitude about it, then I'm not going to represent you as an agency. Like the bottom line is you would not be employing us to do this for you.
[00:43:45] If you didn't see some sort of value in getting in front of all these people. We think they deserve to get paid for it because they're the ones that built. It were just the connection piece. If you're not willing to work with us on that, then go work with the different agency. You know what I mean? So the people that we're representing, like they're on board for the mission, they get it.
[00:44:01] They're like, Hey look, they build an audience. Great. Like these are all great guests that we could probably, we probably could've come to you Collin and been like, Hey, get this person on your show and you probably would have taken at least half of the people that we pitched you just for free, because they're great guests, but.
[00:44:17] Instead now we have, I kinda, I'm a little unique. I have a hard, I have a hard, hard, hard stance on if you reach out cold in any capacity, you gotta pay. Like, I have a hard line on that. Yeah. That's fair. Most people won't like most people, you know, if you do, you know, cause we book people on shows, right. And I'd like to say, we're good at it.
[00:44:39] We do it a little bit different. Yes. We actually check out the shows. We reach out in a meaningful way rather than just. Here's four paragraphs in a one-pager on this person, right? Yeah. And it's like, we don't even have guests, man. What are you talking about?
[00:44:56] Um, and so I have a hard stance on, like, I know how hard it is, you know, it's not easy to get to a hundred thousand downloads a month is hard, work, five episodes a week, you know, and I'm lucky I have a team that edits everything for me. So, and it's still a lot of work. You know, and so it's like, if you're reaching out, you see value, like, and I've had some people to get pissy.
[00:45:17] They're like, I should charge for me to come on your show. It's like, okay, good luck with that. Yeah. Go for it. That's fine. Yeah. I had this guy that, that was like, well, I've done this, this and this. And so I was just like, bro, I had Shaq on my show last week. Like the, like not to, not to have like a big ego contest.
[00:45:36] Like you shouting your accomplishments at me have literally nothing to do with the decision-making process to bring people on my show. It's just the fact that like there's a dozen other people who have just as many qualifications as you have who want this one spot. So at this point when qualifications are equal and resume, The only differentiator is this person's willing to pay to get in front of my audience.
[00:45:58] And I think that that's a great thing for me because now I get to get paid a little bit of money for all the time, effort, energy, and sacrifice I put into building my audience. Um, and so we just want guests you'd have to facilitate that. You know, we've, we've been able to pay out over 20,000 bucks in the last month, uh, to, to creators on the platform, getting them paid for the audiences that they've built cause of.
[00:46:19] Uh, podcasters specifically, you know, they can't make money from advertisers or sponsors until they're at that really like 10,000 downloads, an episode mark, but that you really like, you could start doing it three, four, 5,000 downloads an episode. You. Potentially start bringing on some sponsors. Um, but at those types of numbers, which is better than 95% of podcasts that are, that are in the world.
[00:46:41] So your top 5% of podcasts, you could probably make 1200 bucks a month taking sponsors on your podcast. And then you're giving like four calls to action on every single episode, sending them to five different offers. You're working with all these different companies. They're very stringent on the type of ad that you read.
[00:46:56] What you say in the ad is a lot of work for a little bit of money. And so when we're looking at it, we're like, okay, well the average podcast. $15 to $20 CPM or cost per thousand impressions, cost per thousand downloads. So with a guest spot, since it's 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and it's not a 32nd ad, we can charge people closer to 150 to maybe even $200 CPM.
[00:47:20] Sometimes depending on like the quality of the show, the reach of the audience beyond just the podcast. Do they have an email? Is do they have a social following? Can we promote it on all these other things and get an extra, it gets some extra impressions in this. When you start costing the CPM. So like we're working with these shows that are used to just getting paid $0 per month, and now they can get paid 3000 bucks a month just by interviewing people that they would have interviewed anyway, you know what I mean?
[00:47:44] So, uh, we, we just, we just think that. That's a better solution to the problem is like it has been in the wild west for so long. But I think that, you know, if we can bring more attention to what we got going on with Gusto is like, it'll kind of help people normalize it. Like you said, there's a third party platform.
[00:47:59] That's kind of verifying some of the numbers that people are uploading and saying like, yes, this is a good show to go on. No, this is not a good show to go on this. One's worth paying for this. One's not worth paying for the marketplace. Kind of tends to set the pricing on its own after a little while, just based on supply and demand economics, you know, Yeah.
[00:48:16] Yeah. I love it. Uh, Travis, thanks so much for coming on, man. What's uh, any final thoughts? Where's the best place for people to get into your world? Or maybe get involved with Castillo? Yes. Travis chappell.com. Find out just about anything. You know, we, we have guest de-linked over there. My podcast linked over there.
[00:48:31] My social links are over there. Uh, so best place to go is kind of a hub to see where everything else goes. Is this Travis chappell.com C a J P P E L l.com. If you want to go to guest DEO specifically, it's just guest eo.com, guest io.com. Um, and uh, you can create a free account. You can operate on there for free forever.
[00:48:48] If you want to, if you want to get more serious about it's 97 bucks a month for a pro account allows you to go pitch up to 50 people a month, whether they're guests or shows. Um, so there's a lot of cool things that, that we have that we have over there. We're adding new shows in there all the time. We're writing.
[00:49:00] Uh, cool guests in there all the time. So get in, check it out, let me know, you know, what we can do better over there. We're always looking for. Awesome man. Really appreciate it. If you enjoyed today's episode, please write us a review, share the show with your friends. It really helps us out and you can always drop us some email@example.com, and I will get back to you.
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