Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Feb. 7, 2022

#241 S2 Episode 110 - Never Be Scared To Fail with Karen Kelly

In this episode of the Sales Transformation Collin podcast, Collin Mitchell talks to Karen Kelly, a passionate result-driven sales expert specializing in the art and science of sales. Karen’s exposure to sales began on an unexpected trip with her father who also worked in sales. The seed of interest in the sales and marketing world was planted as she witnessed his father close deals and give out advice to his colleagues.

Karen leveraged her years of experience in teaching and customer service to navigate the internal complexities of the sales and marketing world. She is unafraid of hard work and gives it her all, leaving nothing on the table, the threat of uncertainty and failure be damned.


HIGHLIGHTS

  • Embrace the learning
  • Be strategic and intentional 
  • Failing is all part of it
  • Sellers struggle because they tie their self-worth to their numbers
  • Reflect and remove the bias
  • Seek to get better, not be scared to fail
  • Have self-awareness and willingness to be reflective. 
  • Educate not convince

QUOTES

Karen: “I left no rock unturned and I made it impossible for them to say no to me and that desire to always push myself never left me that’s why I had a great career.”

Collin: " I think the biggest thing and such an important skill if you wanna be an elite seller is not being afraid to fail because if you’re scared to fail, you don’t get your bat or you never take your shot, and if people can get over that and test and experiment and push themselves farther than they thought possible, which can lead to very successful results in whatever it is your doing in your role.”

Karen: "If you’re not willing to fail then you can cross off your willingness to succeed because it’s all part of it. " 

Karen: "You gotta build it from the ground up based on how your buyers are buying. You can’t just retrofit it. You got to start from the ground up with your buyers in mind." 

Collin: "Mapping out the buyer's journeys and building the sales process around that. So many sales organizations get stuck around trying to make the buyer's journey mapped to their sales process."

Karen: It’s common upon us, sales professionals,  to take our future in our hands. For whatever reason your company is not supporting you and not giving you your sales force navigator, take the $300 a month and invest in yourself. Don’t be afraid to spend on that. You’re developing you as a person. The stronger you are as a person, that’s gonna spill over your professional world.

Karen: “I think a lot of people start at the behavioral level. Back it up and start with a belief. The behavioral level is going to be short-lived because willpower will only take you so far. Really look inward and ask if there is a bit of self-sabotage going on? Do I believe in myself and my abilities? That belief will influence the behavior and that will drive the results.”

Karen: “Believe in yourself, and if you don’t, lean into why, what’s holding you back. Whether you can get that awareness of yourself, or you can talk to a friend or a mentor. A lot of the behavior stops because the belief is missing.”

Learn more about Karen in the links below:

Learn more about Collin in the link below: 

Also, you can join our community by checking out @salescast.community. If you're a sales professional looking to take your career to greater heights, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a call with Collin and Chris.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell. And this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.

[00:00:24] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation. I am very excited for today's guest. Uh, I have Karen Kelly. I was actually, uh, had the pleasure of going on her podcast before, which was a ton of fun. And now we're going to flip roles here for a minute, and we're going to dig into Karen story, uh, pull out.

[00:00:49] So. Learning lessons out of there. Um, if you don't know who Karen is, she's known as a passionate results driven sales expert, specializing in the art and science of sales com. Karen, welcome to the show, how you doing? Awesome. Thanks so much for having me call and excited to be here. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very excited to learn a little bit more about your story.

[00:01:08] So, um, take us back. Like where did your sales journey. Oh, gosh, get ready, get up, get a cup of coffee. And once upon a time, you know, oh my sales journey. And I don't like saying that it kind of came by accident. Like most people, cause I'm a very intentional person, but there's a bit of split. It was a little bit by accident.

[00:01:30] But when I knew I wanted to do it, then there was strategy behind it. Um, so just if we rewind back a little bit, You know, growing up my whole life, I was pre-med. I was wanting to be a doctor from a very, very young age and I studied biology and biochemistry and everything medicine. And, uh, I remember that my dad was in sales.

[00:01:51] He got into sales, he was in service and support. And then he moved into sales at around 40. He worked with H. And I remember in third year university, I got a call and, um, he said, I won this president's club again. And, um, your mom doesn't want to go with me. Do you, do you want to go to the Cayman islands or the Virgin islands?

[00:02:12] And it was almost like a burden. He's like, oh, I won this thing again. And I'm like, oh, poor. You. And I'm in third year university, you know, poor, tired from exams. And I'm like, is this a joke because I'm not stable right now. So if it is, it's not a funny one anyway, long, long story short, I went on the trip and, um, I really was exposed.

[00:02:31] I didn't really think about sales or know what it was. I always, I had my path. It was very linear in front of me. And so I saw, you know, what, when you were successful, what you had the ability to do, and I also saw a lot of his call. We're asking me, like, how does he, how does he win every year? How was he so successful?

[00:02:50] And they were, they were genuinely, they wanted to know like his formula, his recipe, and they were kind of taking out notepads ready to take notes. And I remember thinking like I was 19 and I'm like, I don't know. I don't even know what he does. I'm just here on a free vacation. And then I just, all I knew was what he was like as a person.

[00:03:08] And I said, you know what? He's a good person. He's honest, he's trustworthy. He does the right thing, you know, he helps. And that was, you know, now knowing what I know now that was the recipe that made him successful. And so there was no magic bullet. So, you know, that trip kind of planted the seed for me of, um, you know, it just got me thinking differently about what sales was.

[00:03:30] Yeah, but I still it's still, you know, I didn't think it was a career path for me. So that was kind of when I was 19. And then I went into the, uh, finished school and, um, wasn't ready to go to med school or go, go corporate yet. So I actually became a flight attendant and, um, the reason was that as a lot of my friends were taking a year.

[00:03:48] And traveling and I, I love to travel, but I thought I also want to make money. So how can I do both? And I was bilingual, so I thought, okay, let's uh, let's try this flight attendant thing. And I loved it. It was so much fun. And I did that for four years. I remember the second year I was, I was kind of like getting an itch, like the fun, you know, I want to stimulate my brain.

[00:04:08] You know, I went to school, I study and I was like, I need a little bit more. And then I dabbled with teaching. The story gets longer and longer and, uh, really loved the teaching aspect. Um, I was teaching back in the day was in Canada. We had OAC, which was great. 13 science. And I loved it because at that point they were just hanging on my every word and they really needed me.

[00:04:30] And then the content I was sharing with them to get into university. So I just, it was very rewarding and very satisfying. But what dawned on me with teaching was I remember, you know, backing out at three 30 or seeing other cars back out at three 30 when the bell. You know, and I was prepping after I was coaching volleyball, basketball, and I'm pulling out at six 30 and I'm like, hang on a minute, but we're making the same amount of money.

[00:04:53] I'm like, ah, this doesn't sit right with me. So I remember then the sales thing kind of came back to me and I thought, I am not afraid of hard work. And I, and I just thought I want to be paid for my efforts because like, I will be the last one, like will Smith on the treadmill. I'll be that girl that's grit.

[00:05:09] And like, doesn't give up. So then I just said, let's, let's do this. Let's uh, Having kind of married the, the medical background, um, with not deciding not to go to med school. And, and really that, that reason was I, I saw so much of the world through travel that I kind of chose life. And I thought I really loved the adventure, the freedom, but I still want to be in healthcare and I want to help.

[00:05:33] And so I joined a medical, a healthcare company, um, in a customer service role because I didn't have any sales experience. And so this young 20 year old was. Uh, Warrior's saying, you know, it was this a direct path sales and they're just like simmer down. This is an entry level into customer service. So this young girl who didn't want anything to do with sales, once I got the seed planted in the idea, and I already had that future state waved in front.

[00:06:02] I was like, I want this into now. I really wanted it. So then I started, you know, being very strategic and intentional with how can I, and I didn't want any, so any company, I, I really had to believe in the product and I felt I wanted to feel like I was doing good. And so I was, I took my time and I found a great company and I stayed with them for the first five years of my career.

[00:06:22] And, uh, and that was the start of my sales career. Wow. All right. So couple of things, uh, going back to the free vacation when your dad who's winning president's club, once again, uh, did you have no idea how much of a bad-ass he was. You know, and he wasn't even about us. That's the thing. He was just, uh, he was winning presence called world.

[00:06:48] Not even north America, like this guy, who's just a good person. So that's the irony. He wasn't a about, he's a physicist. There's no, bad-ass worry. There is bad-ass now, but he wasn't then. And so I just remember thinking I was intrigued. I was like, a lot of people want what he has, but there was no silver bullet.

[00:07:09] Like then I was like, what, what is he? He happened. Honestly, he was a good person and he did the right thing and that's kind of the boring answer. But I think when you look at sales now for a lot of it, that's, what's missing. Yeah. Because a lot of what was taught previously is kind of the exact opposite of that, right?

[00:07:28] Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. So interesting. So then from there. I didn't quite have the sales bug yet, but you had a little bit of exposure, like, oh, this is know free vacations, kinda nice. Like, um, and then from there, um, you know, after, after university, um, getting to travel while getting paid, you know, nice experiences there, um, then going to, into education.

[00:07:53] Um, and so at what point before taking that, you know, so you mentioned. That once you realize, did you want it to get into sales? You were very intentional and strategic about it. What was that shift? Like? What was it at what point? You know, from being an education to taking that customer service where you're like, okay, this is what I want and here's how I'm going to go get it.

[00:08:14] Yeah, that's a good question call. And you know, it was honestly feeling a little bit under valued and just, and I think the belief wasn't there cause I was, I don't know, 21 or 22, I was young. And I just think when I saw the impact that was having on these high school kids, they were like two or three years younger than me.

[00:08:32] And I saw because I played, you know, volleyball all throughout high school and university. I was changing their lives both professionally, like on the academic side and, uh, growth and confidence. And I thought. That helped instill the belief in me. And how did I not have that impact and saw the transformation I was having.

[00:08:50] I might not have had the courage or the desire to kind of take that to the next level. And I just wouldn't have said I would have settled because that's not who I am, but it might've taken me longer to make that realization. So I think just seeing. Almost, you know, God I'm doing everything and there was a bit of Jew.

[00:09:09] I was jaded a little bit and I just said, I need to, I need to make this. Right. And, and I didn't waste a lot of time for me when I get something it's, it's like, I'm done, I'm acting now. So it was a quick turnaround. And then it's like, okay. And it's not, how can we make up for lost time? Because there wasn't a lot, but then I was hungry for it.

[00:09:26] I was like, okay, now how can I, that's when my competitive edge came out, I'm like, I'm going to get this and I'm going to. Be amazing at it and I'm going to be where my dad was. And so once I got the seat, I was like, I'm running with. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so did you try to get a sales job and strike out and then figured out the customer service was maybe a good place to get started?

[00:09:49] Or how did that happen? You know what, uh, this was, I remember applying in the paper every Thursday. It's so dated in the Toronto star. There was like, um, it work replaced it, but every Thursday, the job things would come out. And I would just F it's a two years experience. I had no experience and my sister was in HR, her whole life, and she said, Karen, like, you need to start in customer.

[00:10:13] And I had a bit of this entitlement and a Y and I'm like, I'm not answering phones. And she's like, well, you don't have any sales experience. You don't have a choice. So I had to start, you know, answering phones and taking orders, but, you know, in hindsight it was a great learning because it taught me the breadth of the organization.

[00:10:34] I was able to see all the different departments and how they come to you. So I remember what I did get into sales. I had all those internal relations built. So, you know, when, when they hired someone externally that onboarding that, that, um, navigating the internal complexities, I was way ahead of them because I was like, oh yeah, I just called Jan she's in there.

[00:10:54] Oh, she's off. Cause it's her. Son's, you know, confirmation today I'll do it. So I was, I hit the ground running because of that train. Yeah. So, you know, it's kind of like be careful what you wish for, because it was so eye-opening and, um, I did it, I didn't love it, but I knew it was a stepping stone and I really tried to embrace the learning in it and say, well, how can this prepare me for where I'm going to be?

[00:11:16] It's not forever, but how can I use this to my advantage? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then what you say you spent five years there. What, uh, what did you do throughout those five years? Well, uh, so it was 14 months in customer service. So when I joined, I remember saying like, is there a direct path to sales? And I remember everyone just kind of creating this really unattainable.

[00:11:39] Hi up. Like nobody can enter behind this curtain, which was sales. It was like this dark room. And I was like, well, now I really wanted it. And they're like, you know, you definitely have to be in the role of minimum two years and it's not for everybody. And we don't. And I just thought they're probably doing that to weed people out and to see who really is hungry for it.

[00:11:57] And we'll stick to the process. And I remember doing everything and I S I worked with the account managers. I did projects. I went to trade shows, so I got an in 14 months and I did. Two years, whatever I'm in. And, and then I closed the largest deal a company had ever had in 2005. And I just thought, you know what, here I am look out.

[00:12:19] And the lesson there is don't let anyone, you know, crush you or say no, because so many people that don't have that belief would just stay there, go back to their desk and wait out the other eight months. And I'm like, you fueled me. You may be wanting harder and I will just show. And I just left no rock on turn.

[00:12:39] I made it impossible for them to say no to me. And that, that never left me that desire to always. Push, um, push myself, you know, that's why I had a great and very successful career. Where do you? It's very interesting. Um, I'm intrigued by this for a number of reasons. Right. But yeah. I mean, somebody tell you, you can't do it just gives you the field that you need to go do it and, you know, show them what you're made of where does that come from for you?

[00:13:07] It seems like. You kind of were built with a lot of determination, um, based on, you know, kind of what I've learned so far about your story. Um, where does that drive? Where does that determination, uh, come from, you know, calling, I would say, I, you know, I want to for four girls, and so it was kind of like fight for everything, whether it's your last meal or, or not to be made fun of at the dinner table, but I just, uh, you know, we grew up, uh, Not a lot.

[00:13:38] And I just, everything I had I had to work for. And so I just, I, I'm not afraid of hard work and I love to win, but, but, um, a lot of people would say, well, you know, what are the odds of winning? And I'm like, who cares? Just put yourself in there and give it your all, like, just leave nothing on the table. And part of that also, I was, I ran competitive.

[00:14:01] And I can definitely say there was a correlation between leaving no gas in the tank. And I know we talked about our marathon running days and just how that spilled out to life. And I just thought I'm okay losing, but don't deny me my chance to be. Yeah. You know, and that's what bothers me when I don't get a chance to show and to really work for it and get that competitive edge out.

[00:14:24] I just it's, it's just injust, you know? And it's like, everyone deserves a chance. So when I got it, I'm like look out and if I didn't get it, that's okay. I would learn my ego would definitely take a hit round one, but round two, I was like, I'm in like, I've learned, I took the learnings, I put it back and I would get it maybe round two or three.

[00:14:43] And as you're doing that, you're continually adding and building, but you're also really getting in tune and becoming more self-awareness. When do I have w what situations am I kind of failing in it and why? And I remember leaning into that and going, like, why am I holding myself back? And oftentimes it was, you'd get in your own head and maybe it was a belief thing, or maybe you were up against, and this is both in life and in business.

[00:15:06] And I just, the older I got, I just realized to let that go, you know, I can't control that and all I can control. And that there's that fire I'm responsible for my own fire. And I have a real intrinsic fight in me that I will. There's a warrior, whether it's a mom, now I'm a business owner, but I will go down fighting.

[00:15:26] Um, I love that. Um, so I mean, I think the biggest thing there, right? And, and this is such a, I'd say important skill. If you want to be like an elite seller, right. Is not being scared of. You know, uh, because if you're scared to fail you, you don't get your bat or you never take your shot or, you know, and if people they can get over that are willing to test and experiment and push themselves further than they thought possible, um, which can lead to, you know, very successful, um, results in whatever it is you're doing, you know?

[00:16:06] Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I think, you know, I'm more willing to fail now as an entrepreneur and a business owner that I don't think if for when it's not, if it's when, but it's part of it and if you're not willing to fail, then you can cross off your willingness to succeed as well, because it's all part of it.

[00:16:25] Right. And I think sometimes people just that language in the word failure. They attach it to their self-worth or who they are. And I'm like, that's just part of it. And that's just feedback saying, Hey, good effort, maybe early, maybe the timing's wrong, or maybe the customer's wrong, whatever it is. But maybe keep that in your back pocket and play it later, but it's just not for right now.

[00:16:48] So I just think get the ego that's ego. Right. And it's just, like I say, thanks. Thanks for, you know, making me aware and doing a course. Correct. And now I'll know different for next time. Yeah. It's it can be tough for sellers, right. Because, okay. So, you know, you don't get the results you're looking for. You don't win the deal, whatever the case is, maybe there's some things to learn there, but there's whole, so the possibility that you could have absolutely done everything right in the best.

[00:17:14] In the best way and you still don't win. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the thing that you mentioned is a lot of sellers can struggle with that too, because they tie like their self worth to their number or the results that they do or don't get. So how, how does somebody. Find a good balance with, you know, um, is there something to learn or like, did I actually just give it my best shot and it just wasn't a good fit.

[00:17:44] Wasn't good timing. Whatever the reason was, you know, move on, try to learn something from that experience. Um, you know, I think just for me, I was very reflective after even a call, whether it was a call or lost or even a one opportunity. And I really wanted to be prescriptive because if I. If I can't identify it, label it, then I can't repeat it or not repeat it or avoid it.

[00:18:08] Right. And so I think when I just sat quiet and remove the bias, because sometimes you're like, I totally dropped the ball there. And, you know, I'm willing to own angle. You, you over spoke in that meeting, you talked complete BS or whatever, you know, whatever it was. But I was not, I was aware enough and I was honest enough with myself because I wanted truth that I, I was, I could analyze.

[00:18:31] So sometimes I was like, you know what? Um, that would never have happened. These guys, they don't have the budget or the change management's not there. So I didn't take it personally because I think every situation is different. And if you can look at it, clearly remove emotion, remove yourself from it. You can see.

[00:18:49] You can see what it was. And sometimes it was you. Sometimes you never, also, you never find that answer. So you have to kind of let that go and say, well, you know, maybe in time I'll find out, but you know, you gotta be okay and you got to detach easier said than done, but detach from the outcome when you can't figure it out.

[00:19:07] And just when it is obvious, What can you put in place to prevent it from happening again, or to continue doing it because you actually were the contributor to, to the positive side of it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think that there's. I mean, what I'm hearing you say, a lot of the, you know, successes that you've had through your journey have been contributed to like, you know, seeking to get better and not being, you know, scared to fail.

[00:19:33] Um, but also having that level of like self-awareness and willingness to be reflective, which can be uncomfortable for a lot of sellers. Like, you know, they don't want to look at why we didn't lose that deal because, um, they're not willing to sort of face it. Yeah. And it wasn't always like that. I got to say earlier when my career, you know, even getting feedback, I was cringing.

[00:19:58] I know everybody says they love feedback until they get some feedback that hurts. I mean, even now, you know, you asked for the evaluations, you're like, but you know, it's, it truly is the only way to get better. So I definitely, in my career, I didn't have. Um, as polished a muscle, um, in the reflective phase.

[00:20:16] But as I continued, I definitely wanted to get better all the time. Like the, and it was just against myself. I just always wanted to be a constantly improving, you know, and I think when I studied lean six Sigma and that's what it is, it's continuous improvement. Right. And that's, that's the model I adopted for myself.

[00:20:34] I just never wanted to stop growing. Yeah. Yeah. I think anytime any seller thinks they've got it all figured out they're in big trouble. Right. I mean, I see it all the time sellers that think they, um, you know, have figured it out and have nothing to learn. Yeah. It was just a fixed mindset. Right. And it just doesn't serve you.

[00:20:55] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So tell me a little bit, um, after, you know, spending time there, when, when did you eventually.

[00:21:08] I started my business around four years ago. Okay. And, um, I actually, the idea came to me on maternity leave my first mat leave where you're supposed to use. Enjoy being a mom. I take things. Well, I was just taking things slowly because it's not nothing slow about it, but I remember starting reading a book.

[00:21:27] It was called mom shift and the seed was just planted. It was definitely timing, but something changes in you. When, when I became a mom, it changed in me anyways. And I had that kind of warrior is like, what can I do now? How can I, the sense of purpose became very, um, Eh, you know, top of mind for me is like, I now have a legacy.

[00:21:46] Like I have a kid, what, what am I going to do differently? That's going to make them proud of me and just see myself in a different light. And so I started, uh, having, you know, just building content. I didn't even know what I was going to do. I started writing content, writing modules, obviously all I knew was say.

[00:22:02] And then, um, I guess three or four years later, I pulled the pin and I just went on my own and, um, never looked back. Wow. Uh, such an interesting way to get started. Right? Like, I feel like content is something people wait too long to get started with. And I don't know. I mean, I had 20 years of stuff built up inside.

[00:22:29] That's all I knew. And I think what held me back or what, maybe didn't allow me to come to the realization of what I wanted to do. When you look at, you know, a hard skill, like my mom was a nurse, my sister was an engineer. They, they identified people will be like, what are you? And I'm like, oh, I don't know.

[00:22:46] I'm a salesperson. Like I didn't have any real something that's hanging my, you know, put my flag in the ground. But people, you know, would always fly me into, to produce presentations. And if they were losing a deal, they'd fly me in. And I would just like, I was kind of the, the closer that the hail Mary, I remember.

[00:23:03] Why? Why are you like, why can't they do it? Like, why are this is their job? Why are you? Like, I'll do it. But like, I don't understand why. And I guess I was a little naive and you know, and then I thought, well, maybe I could turn this into a business. People are actually coming to me, they're seeking this. So there's a gap, but because it was so second nature to me, I was kind of like, you don't want it.

[00:23:23] You don't know how to, you don't want it. Why? I don't understand. I eat, breathe and sleep, but that's all I know. So then I thought, okay, let's uh, let's turn this into a business. Okay. And so tell me a little bit more about the business. Like what type of work do you guys do? Um, the clients that you work with.

[00:23:40] What are they typically struggling with and what are the results sort of look like after doing some work together? Sure. So, you know, I worked B2B my whole life and I really enterprise sale, you know, committees long sales cycle, 18 to 24 months. And it was very strategic. Probably say on one hand, how often I received sales, training and sales coaching, I didn't get any of it.

[00:24:03] So I, I really self-developed, um, myself because of that desire to always get better. And I think what I see. And companies as they often mistake product training for sales training. And, and it's just, and that's all I received. And I'm like, well, where's the positioning and this is great, but like, what problem are we solving?

[00:24:23] And these kinds of questions never came up. And so, you know, now what we do is we, we work with, you know, B2B pretty, a lot of our customers are tech, but we do, you know, FinTech. We do, um, pharma ma healthcare. We do a pretty much enterprise complex selling. And they come to us for various reasons. But the common theme is that when you look at flow, they come to be where the choke is or where they stopped.

[00:24:48] And they're like, this is the problem. And you know, when you, when you really kind of take that prescriptive lens, that's the symptom. And it's like, let's just back it up two or three stages. And you're like, this is the problem. This is a possible problem. And you know, this is why, so you start asking the questions and then we, you know, we really love.

[00:25:06] Process. So, you know, what are you following? And that's kind of where we start is, do you have, uh, you know, uh, uh, dedicated. Repeatable process that everyone's following it. And most often they don't and now they haven't modified it to reflect the current environment we're working in. So it's like, well, how you, you can't just retrofit and say, well, now it's virtual.

[00:25:27] And it's like, you got to build it from the ground up based on how your buyers. Are buying, where are they finding? Where are they meeting you? So I think people it's like a house it's like, you can't just retrofit it. You got to start from the ground up with your buyer in mind. So a lot of what we do starts at that by defining your buyer's journey and then really aligning their sales process with it based on what they're doing, but also based on the gaps.

[00:25:49] That were existing that we found before and saying, well, we can't continue to do that. Let's let's redefine that. Let's get your team involved, but also understanding some background as to why, why was that happening? Like why were people skipping this step? Why are they deviating? And oftentimes this is a redundant step.

[00:26:07] You're dealing with people and that they're, they're thinking, this is stupid. Why are you making me do this? You know? And I know back in corporate, there was a lot of that and I'm just like, I'm not doing that. That's just ridiculous. Or let's ask for, you know, let's fill out Salesforce, the student account plan.

[00:26:20] And can you send it to me an Excel spreadsheet? I'm like, no, I'm not. You know, you have to realize you're dealing with people. And so work with these people. They're the voice of the customer. They are closest to the customer and find out what what's going on, what are they actually doing and what are they avoiding and why are they avoiding it?

[00:26:36] Right? Cause it shows that shows where your process is flawed, but it also shows what kind of team you have. And when you can lean into that team and get their input and collaborate with them, you know, that's, that's the culture and you're creating a culture of inclusive. And have continuous development.

[00:26:53] So that's kind of a little bit about where we encompass the training part, but also the collaboration that, that leads then into the coaching, you know, because I think when you look at sales training, some people come in and they do this one day. Tony Robbins event. And you're just like that, that was motivating on a Friday, but on a Monday I show up and I'm like, I don't even remember what we talked about.

[00:27:14] So there's, there's no change coming around there. So it's just then building on that and how can you reinforce it? So how can you either coach the coach and really give them the tools, the schedule, how to coach their team to drive the change, or, you know, they bring me in as a kind of strategic partner and I'll work with them to coach their team, to get them more than you.

[00:27:34] Wow. Yeah. Uh, I love so many things about that, but the one thing that I love most that you said was starting with a couple of things. Actually, I can't just pick one thing. I'm going to have to pick two. Uh, the first thing there is, I think what I've seen, you know, a lot of people is they love the example of trying to retrofit the house, right?

[00:27:52] Like, okay, this is what used to work. And now we're just going to change some things and do it virtually. Um, and you're saying, no, you got to start from scratch and rebuild. Right. Which I don't think there's a lot of people thinking of it that way and they should be. And then the second part is mapping out the buyer's journeys.

[00:28:09] Right. And that could be different for different personas, potentially a little bit. Um, and then building the sales process around that. So many sales organizations get stuck around trying to make the buyers journey map to their sales process. Yeah, and they won't, they're not going to follow you. You got to follow them.

[00:28:27] Right. And the way they buy is different and 92% of them would prefer virtual than face-to-face. So what are they doing? Where are they going? How are they doing it? It's, it's a new way of thinking, right? Because so much of. W has been, or was, or still is to this day, taught and sales is the exact opposite of that.

[00:28:47] Right. You're supposed to persuade people and get them to, you know, do these certain things and, um, and it goes against that. Right. So I think it's a lot of people are like, wait, I've been being told to do things a certain way for my entire sales career. And you're telling me that it's wrong and I need to do it totally different.

[00:29:08] I know, I know. That's what. Allows me to stay employed is that some people will say, you know, I say, what's your objective. My objective is convinced them that this, and I'm like, you're never going to convince them, remove that word, convincing. Like you have to educate them. You have to share insights. But if you're trying to convince them, you're going to convince them to stay away from you.

[00:29:29] They'll just tighten their grip on status quo or whoever they're using right now. So you're like, okay, you know, all of you other tills. Coaches are they keep teaching that stuff? And that keeps the job security for you. Right? Well, it's even sales leaders, right? It's people that, you know, and this is what we're, I kind of have to chuckle that sales leaders that don't go outside for external support.

[00:29:54] And it's, it's what, it's all they know. So are they getting the latest and greatest? Are they bringing the gong.io? Are they bringing in all these data points to support where we are today? Or are they still in the 1992 binders from, you know, the global. It's just a joke and it's like, so they don't know any different.

[00:30:14] Right. But then that continues downstream that their, their team is still oblivious. And that's why they continue to use the words convincing and, and be very seller, focus and pitch immediately without seeking first, to understand it's to an, to an extent, to a large extent it's what's coming from an, from above them.

[00:30:33] Yeah. Uh, well, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Final thoughts. And then where can people that want to get into your world? Okay. Thank you. Final thoughts. I would say call it is that, you know, it's a common upon us as sales professionals to take our future into our hands.

[00:30:54] So if for whatever reason, your company is not supporting you and they're not giving you the, you know, the Salesforce navigator budget, the, I don't know any course, you can get. Take the $300 a month and invest in yourself. Um, don't be afraid to spend on that. And I think it's just, this is, this is you.

[00:31:12] You're developing you as a person. And so the stronger you are as a person, that's going to spill over into your professional world. So that's the first thing I would say. Um, and the second thing is just, I think a lot of people start at that behavioral level. They start like, I'm going to do this, especially in a new year, I'm gonna start changing.

[00:31:28] Back it up and start with the belief because the behavior level is going to be short-lived because willpower will only take you so far, really look inward and say, what is there a bit of self-sabotage going on? Do I believe in myself and my abilities? And that's that belief? Will influence the behaviors and that will drive the results.

[00:31:48] So I would just say really believe in yourself. And if you don't lean into why what's holding you back, whether you can get that awareness on yourself, you can talk to a friend, a mentor, but I, a lot of the behavior stops because the belief. And, um, and where can you find me? You can find me on LinkedIn.

[00:32:07] You can, uh, K2 perform is, uh, the website. And I also host the K2 sales podcast. So everything kind of K2, you can find. Great. We will drop the links there in the show notes for everybody to check out the podcast, LinkedIn, your website, all that good stuff. Thanks again for coming on the show. If you enjoyed today's episode, please write us a review, share the show with your friends.

[00:32:33] It really does help us out. And I'm always listening for your feedback. You can go to sales, transformation.fm, drop me a voice DM, and I will get back to you. Hey, you stopped. That tells me you're serious about your own sales transformation. If you're tired of doing things the old way and want to get started in your journey with other people on the same path, head over to sales, cast.community, and crush your numbers on your loadable.

[00:32:59] Yeah. It's free sales cast, doc community. Send me a DM with your best pitch and mention this ad. And I might even give you free access to our best templates.