Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Jan. 17, 2022

#229 S2 Episode 98 - From Psychology Major to A Phone Freak & SDR/BDR Advocate with Kevin Hopp

In this episode of the Sales Transformation episode, Collin Mitchell talks to Kevin Hopp, CEO of Hopp Consulting Group and host of the Sales Career podcast. Kevin is a self-described Phone Freak and SD/BDR Advocate.

Kevin talks about the important nature of prospecting and turning cold leads into warm ones read for nurturing. Kevin also gives out practical tips for cold-calling, and why talking about high-level picture stuff is the only way to go when you first open the door.


Book Your Free Revenue First Podcast Strategy here!

Get Your Free Dial Session here!

Claim Your Free 200 Leads here!

HIGHLIGHTS

  • From psychology and philosophy to sales 
  • Find the path of least resistance when it comes to your nature
  • Salespeople have to be go-getters
  • AEs should know how to prospect 
  • Sales is more than just a numbers game 
  • Treat your employees right  and take a long-term strategy
  • Hire fast, fire fast
  • When you're cold-calling, you should know who you're calling
  • SDRs and BDRs don’t have to be sellers

QUOTES

Kevin: “One of the things that I highly advocate for other people to do is to try and find your path of least resistance when it comes to your nature. What's Kevin Hopp's nature? I'm kind of loud, I'm kind of outgoing, I am an extrovert.”

Kevin: “The nature of sales is you have to have a forward-leaning mindset.”

Kevin: "Salespeople are the kind of people that say, okay, I'm gonna go make it happen today. You gotta have a little bit of that spunk, little bit of that pizzaz in your attitude. Otherwise, it's not gonna work out well for you. You can't sit on your ass and wait for anyone to do anything for you in sales. You have to do things. Even if you got inbound leads, you have to call them."

Kevin: “AEs absolutely need to remember that going out and creating a connection with someone, in an absolutely cold environment with no preconceived notion on either side, full stop. I will argue that against anybody. It's harder than closing, it's harder than you know, complex deal management, it's harder than enterprise sales."

Kevin: “It's a rare breed of sales leader that understands modern prospecting and also understands the sales closing aspect of it, the higher level sales management stuff.”

Kevin: "I think that's one of the biggest problems is, Sales leaders don't see SDR as a long-term investment and they don't put the thought into, okay, well their day can't suck. Like how come the AEs are travelling all over the country and taking their Zoom calls, whatever and they just get to say, oh the leads aren't qualified and they miss quota and they don't get fired but a BDR, whose doing 300 calls a day and not converting as high as they could or should, gets axed."

Kevin: "When you're cold calling, you should know who you're calling. You should know what role they play in their organization and why that's relevant, what business challenge you can solve for them, and then you need to have a specialized, very differentiated pitch for them." 

Kevin: “Cold-calling and top of funnel is about aligning business challenges and valuable outcomes, and having high-level discussions about that. And that's when sales starts.”

Learn more about Kevin in the links below:

Also, you can join our community by checking out @salescast.community. If you're a sales professional looking to take your career to greater heights, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a call with Collin and Chris.

Looking to start your own Podcats? Book a FREE strategy call. 🚀

Transcript

[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell, and this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.

[00:00:24] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation today. I've got a special guest for you. I've got my man, Kevin. CEO of hop consulting group. The host of the sales career podcast, his specialty is outbound sales process and structure with a heavy emphasis on cold calling. He resides in San Diego with his wife, dog and 11 month old daughter.

[00:00:45] And he is going to be bringing the. So stick around Kevin, welcome to the show. Thanks con I, uh, you know, longtime listener, uh, second time being on here, right? Like you and I did, did, uh, when it was, when it was sales hustle or what was the last podcast you had? In the previous iteration, your podcasts. He had me on, I think my background was what became my, my daughter's nursery.

[00:01:09] Right. So now I'm in my new brand new office here in my garage. Cause that's what happens to us men. We get kicked out for the baby to have a nursery, but really, really excited to be on the show today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can, uh, I can hear the birds chirping in sunny, San Diego over there. Look there there's there's a lot going on in my neighborhood.

[00:01:28] That is for certain. Bring us back for a minute. I had the pleasure of interviewing you on your show. So I learned a little bit about your story, but for those who have not subscribed to your show yet, which they should sales career podcast, very interesting show, uh, covering things that you won't find on other shows.

[00:01:50] And we'll get into that. But. Take us back to the Kevin hop story. Where did your sales journey start? So I guess you could say my sales journey started when I was a kid and I had a, I had a lemonade stand and I was always hustling and I've always been a born sell. I just kidding. I really, no. I was like, wait, that's not the story I heard.

[00:02:11] That's not true either. That's where, like, I, I hear a lot of people talk about that where they're like, well, you know, in a way I've always been in sales and like, look respect to you. If that's like the way you've been. That's not my story, like at all. Right. Like I. I have a fascination with philosophy and psychology.

[00:02:29] Right. So when I was in, in college, I was a psychology major. I did a bunch of different internships and I was trying to figure out like, all right. So if I'm a psych major, um, you know, the thing I always say is I'm qualified to do anything and absolutely nothing at the exact same time, like psych majors can the, world's your oyster?

[00:02:47] You have a college degree. I went to a good school at UC Santa Barbara to UC school. Okay. What am I going to do with this? Right. It's a good question. Cause I couldn't find it. Couldn't put my thumb on exactly what I wanted to do. I wasn't super technical. I wasn't picking up coding. I wasn't leaning into that side of, of what tech and software sales is all about.

[00:03:07] And then I was actually involved in an internship that was kind of customer success. So I knew I liked. Dealing with people. I like tech. I liked the, you know, the whole startup thing. This is, this is right before, do you mind? There's like 2014, right before Silicon valley, the show at HBO show came out.

[00:03:23] Love that show. Right. And w when that came out, I was actually working at a startup, like fast forward a year and a half later. And I was like, man, like I'm living this, you know, like I would land to in the bay area. With my, with my wife, we'd go up to see her family, which was in the bay area. And I'd get on to Bart and see an ad for, you know, Twilio and like all these like bay area companies, these tech companies that you hear about, you see them on tech crunch, but here in San Diego, we didn't have a big tech scene just yet.

[00:03:52] So I got into the software sales because what else am I going to do? Right like that, that was kind of how I stumbled into it. And then I think one of the things that I'm highly advocate for people to do is to, to try and find the path of least resistance when it comes to your nature. Right? What what's Kevin hops in nature.

[00:04:14] I'm kind of loud. I'm kind of outgoing. I am an extrovert, right? That the, the textbook definition of an extrovert is someone who recharges their batteries around other people with noise. Right. My wife gets so annoyed. She's an introvert. I turned the TV on every night and we tried to go to sleep cause I need the noise and I need the action.

[00:04:33] And that's how my brain slowly starts to unwind as opposed to, she wants to turn it all off, put on, you know, a blindfold and go to sleep in a dark corner. It's just different. Right. So I figured out my nature and I figured out what I can do to make money. And that is sales. That's the marriage of the two of them.

[00:04:53] So. It's an interesting perspective, right? Because what you're saying is if you're an extroverted priests person and that sales could be a good career path for you, I think so, because I think the nature of sales is you have to have a forward-leaning mindset. Now, what does that mean in sales? If you simply wait for people to tap you on the shoulder and say, Hey, uh, I wanted to buy this big thing.

[00:05:22] You know, I want to buy this solution. Can you help me? And you say, sure, here's a purchase order thing. Dang. Well, let's back up for a second. Cause that's actually called customer service. Right? Right. I mean, I, I promise you calling you and I know that there are reps listening to this right now that say, well, you know, outbound that's for COVID he's a, don't know how to do inbound.

[00:05:41] And I here at XYZ Corp. We've got MQL. ELLs. Yeah. Yeah. All right, cool. But still the people that go get it every top performing salesperson I've ever. Leans forward. Right? Like when I talk about, in my first episode of my podcast is left lane or mentality, right? Left lane, meaning the left lane goes to the fastest.

[00:06:00] Salespeople are the kind of people that say, okay, I'm going to go make it happen today. You got to have a little bit of that, that spunk a little bit, that pizazz in your attitude. Otherwise it's not going to work out well for you. You can't sit on it. On your, on your tookus and say, somebody came to say ass here, can't sit on your ass and wait for anyone to do anything for you.

[00:06:23] In sales, you have to do things. Even if you have inbound leads, you got to call them, and then you've got to do a good discovery and you've got to do a good job. Positioning your solution as the solution for these people, right? That's the art of sales is getting people to make a decision on your time.

[00:06:40] What's interesting is a lot of people would think now you're, you're like an extrovert at another level. Um, but a lot of people would think that I am, and I'm not, I'm actually an incubator person, but I can turn it on and I turn it on. And my sales job, right. Really? Um, in my personal life, I'm much more reserved.

[00:06:59] I don't like big parties too much. I don't like, like I have a few great friends. I don't need to have a shit ton of friends. Um, I enjoy time with my family, you know? More quiet, more introverted. So it's interesting. Um, but yeah, some people can't turn it on. They're either one or the other. Right. And, and, and, and w what's the one thing that I want to dig into a little bit and get your opinion on is you talked about salespeople where people that get after it, they go get it.

[00:07:26] Like, that's the key difference between like, Hey, are you an order taker or are you like an elite seller? Right. Are you better served in customer service or customer success? Which nothing wrong with. If that's your personality, if that's what lights you up, that's where you're comfortable. And you're not the type of person that has the motivation to make things happen.

[00:07:43] Then you're probably never going to be an elite seller, which is fine. There's, you know, not everybody is cut out for that. Right. Um, but here's an interesting thing, right? Is, uh, there's a lot of talk about ease and whether they should prospect or not. You know, what are your thoughts on that? Hey, look, I've been in a, I've carried a bag more than once that more than a few companies, um, they absolutely should prospect, right?

[00:08:10] And one of the things that that is messed up that happens all too often with the rise of sales development, sales development is like, I feel like one of the hottest things on LinkedIn right now go look at how many open sales development jobs it's like 50,000. I it's the country everyone's trying to hire a sales development reps with the rise of sales development is the rise of a saying yeah, that's right.

[00:08:31] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My pipeline problem is his fault. Like it's, they're pointing at the BDR pit pony at the BDRs in slack saying, well, my pipeline problem is your problem. Well, I'm a closer I close deals. Okay. I'm con I'm a relationship based sales. Yeah, I've put in. I've put in my, my, my hours, I put in to walk.

[00:08:53] I used to cold call too, but back in the day, back in my day, I crushed cold calls. Okay. Then why don't you make a cold call? Show me how to do it. Oh, well, I, I've got to review for my calls. I've got to prepare, right. I, if I've heard it once, I've heard it a hundred times with my clients. I hear this all the time.

[00:09:07] Right. And one of the things that I try to do is I bring the BDRs and the AEs together on calls. Right. And talk about this. Cause what the most common complaint from a. By far in a way, this deal is not qualified. You set a meeting with someone and they're not ready to buy, right. Because if you're an AA and you get a few inbounds a month, you love it because when this person sits down, they're like, yeah.

[00:09:34] So XYZ Corp. What do you guys do? And how is it different? And they've got all these questions for you and they're in a buying cycle. That's great. And by the way, I'm becoming way more of a fan of demand generation. Right? Shout out to Chris Walker, demand gen live, uh, everyone out there should, should look him up.

[00:09:52] Um, he's leading the, the, the wave in terms of when you got to create more hand-raisers because everybody loves hand-raisers and I agree like if, if you could find a way to create way more hand-raisers sales developments. Yeah. Sales is easier. The company makes more money. It's the art and science of how do you get people in your market to understand what you're selling and the problems you solve and then come to you, which would be great, but he's absolutely, you need to remember that going out and creating a connection with someone in an absolutely cold environment with no preconceived notion on either side is the hardest thing there is to do in sales full stop.

[00:10:31] And I will argue that against anybody it's harder than closing. It's harder. You know, complex deal manager. It's harder than enterprise sales going from zero to one is the most hardest is the hardest thing that salespeople have to do and ease, lose sight of that. Sometimes, you know, they get a little comfortable.

[00:10:47] Do you feel that SDRs BDRs are a little an under appreciated in certain organizations? Sure, absolutely. And I think. The bigger crime, in my opinion of what's going on in SAS right now is BDRs that are under appreciated because the BDRs are under-trained right. And this kind of comes full circle to what I do.

[00:11:11] And we'll hop consultant. We've done. It's like I advocate for creating a BDR job that people love creating a BDR job that turns them into great sellers, creating a BDR job that produces reliable quality pipeline, but that's not. Right. A lot of VPs and SVPs, you got to love them. Like the, you sometimes you see these hires on LinkedIn and it's like, you know, Johnny Smith who was at this company for seven years at that company for nine years and the, his photos, him in a suit and he gets hired as the SVP at a startup.

[00:11:44] And you're like, oh, never made a cold call before. Oh, no, he did for sun microsystem. Back in to, you know, 1988, like 1997 calling was dead. Yeah. Yeah. He's a back in my day. It was, you just got to pound those phones. Right. But like, I always kind of go, oh, shoot. That sucks because that guy is going to be super strategic at the closing level, at the market knowledge level at the, you know, how I run my team, how we run deals, but the top of the funnel.

[00:12:15] In the modern environments in 2022, if you're not enabling your SDRs, if you're not investing in training and development for your sales development team, don't expect them to stick around very long and don't expect them to produce at a very high, reliable level. People need to invest in those sorts of things.

[00:12:32] And it's, it's a, it's a rare breed of sales leader that understands modern prospecting and also understands. The sales, closing aspect of it, right? The, the higher level sales management stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because a lot of people that are maybe like you described there, they're more interested in the activities, right.

[00:12:59] You've got to make this many calls, get a book, this many meetings. Sure. And, and, and what's your take P there's different opinions on this? Like, is sales a numbers game or not? I mean, the, the simplest form of the answer is yes, of course it's a numbers game. It's an absolute numbers game. So when I start every client engagement, we start in a spreadsheet.

[00:13:20] I don't necessarily love it. It's my least favorite part of the job. I'll be honest. I'm a psychology major. I'm a talker. Some people would say I have the gift of the gap. Okay. I can talk to anybody. My wife, my wife rolls her eyes. Every time we walk into anywhere, I make five friends. Right. So. The, the numbers part of it is absolutely essential because if the numbers don't work out, you can't make up for that with the gift of the gab, right?

[00:13:45] Like you gotta be able to see, okay, this sale price with this many activities at this conversion rate, we can expect this many meetings. And out of historically, when we get cold meetings, we close this percent. You can map all that out 12 months in advance and say, okay, we can reasonably. This amount of revenue.

[00:14:02] If someone's out there swinging the hammer, it making the calls. Okay. Doing all that stuff. So I think one of the other problems you see is people who don't understand the math of sales. Shout out to Ryan ricer big, not the sales guy. He actually just dropped a super, super helpful resource on his page, around how people can see the activities and exactly how they map to quota attainment.

[00:14:22] Um, he taught me everything. I know this is his brand, by the way. Uh, I'm a big Ryan ricer fan. Um, it's a numbers game. But the missing piece of that is you can't just give a rep a spreadsheet and say, here, look, it makes total sense. There is a lot of tactical advice and guidance and the energy and the strategic direction of how you're going to get those numbers to work.

[00:14:50] So that's why with my clients, I start in the spreadsheet and I say, look, here's the math, right? I give you the spreadsheet before we even sign a contract. And I say, look, it's. Now who's going to do it. Are you going to do that? Mr. VP of sales, who's super busy with your 10 AEs and you know, all this other stuff you have going on, or do you want a pro to come in and help you make those numbers happen?

[00:15:11] Right? Like that that's the that's, that's kind of the way it always happens. So, so the answer is sort of yes and no, right? Because, because yes, you need to know the numbers. Right. But I think what often happens in sort of that scenario is. To get to whatever the bigger goal is. It's like we just need more activities where if you spent a little bit more time improving the quality of the current activities, the numbers start to look a little bit more interesting.

[00:15:40] Oh, a hundred percent, right? A hundred percent. Uh, your conversion rates are the most important piece of the pie. It's not just raw activity. The answer is not more calls and more emails. The answer is higher conversions. If you only have to talk to six people to get a meeting instead of 20, that is worth its weight in gold, right.

[00:16:02] Time is money, you know? So, um, but, but to your point, often a lot of these leaders are spending more time in the conversion of the closing and often overlooking or not investing or spending enough time on the front lines of how do we. The people that are going in cold setting up these conversations to convert it, to have a better conversion rate, a better qualifying rate, a hundred percent.

[00:16:30] And, uh, that that's, you know, I th the entirety of the problem comes back to, if you think about it now, here's, here's a take for you, right? If sales leaders started thinking of themselves as long-term employees, Of quality salespeople, they would think differently about every step of their sales funnel, because a lot of, lot of sales leaders tend to say, well, my expertise is in the.

[00:16:57] So I'm going to put a lot of time and effort and energy in the channel, and I'm going to pay people. I'm going to measure them on raw activity metrics for top of funnel, because I'm spending all my time on channel or I'm the closing specialist, or I'm the PLG lead, you know? Well, I know how to make these people convert, but they forget that in order to get those quality people, the least expensive way to do it is to hire someone as an SDR.

[00:17:23] And develop that job in a way that they want to stay with your organization. They hit their OTE. They're making good money. They see the room for advancement and they level up their skills as they go along. Like I, I'm passionate about people leaning into sales and using sales development as the way to get in.

[00:17:40] Right. And, and how did, how do I know how to do this? Like, I've done it with a bunch of organizations, number one, but I did it myself, right. I was an SDR top performer and then got promoted to account executive at, at, uh, touch, you know, back in the day. So I, I think that's one of the bigger problems is, is sales leaders don't see SDRs as a long-term investment and they don't put the thought into.

[00:18:03] Well, their day can't suck. Like how come the AEs are traveling, you know, all over the country and taking their zoom calls wherever, then they just get to say, oh, you know, the, you know, the leads aren't qualified and they miss quota and they don't get fired. But a BDR who's doing 300 calls a day and not converting as high as they could or should get acts.

[00:18:24] It's just, you know, it's a treat. You treat your employees, right. And take a long-term strategy. To the way you employ people. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think back to the kind of the point that I made originally, right, is unfortunately a lot of SDR BDRs, aren't getting the respect they deserve. They aren't getting the level of investment from leadership that they need to grow as people, as humans, as you know, part of the team.

[00:18:54] Um, and a lot of times they are kind of playing the numbers game there. Hey, if we hire 20, you know, two are gonna make it. What's your thoughts? Uh, you know, so here's, here's another, here's another hot take for you, right? Like the, I do, especially in startup environments, I exclusively work with startups. I do subscribe to hire fast fire fast.

[00:19:17] So that might sound a little brutal. But at the same time, determining if someone coming into an entry-level sales role is going to be successful or. It's a tricky thing to do, right? There's a few companies out there trying to tackle that there are a bunch of these companies out there that are doing these sales fellowships, these like learning things, you know, like they specialize in taking people from non-tech backgrounds and then bringing them into software sales I'm into that.

[00:19:42] But I've worked very closely with a few of those companies and it's still hit or miss, even if someone has training, it's hard to say for sure, this person's going to work out. So. In startups hire fast fire fast. Right? So bring someone in, but if they are not talking the talk and then that's part of, you know, I'm a phone freak, right?

[00:20:03] I'm cold calling guy. Why am I a cold calling guy? Because I realized when I was an SDR and this is a true story, right? A true story of when I was an SDR, I was like four or five months into the job, four months into the job of an in-office SDR job. And all you STRs out there that are working your STR jobs running.

[00:20:23] It's way more intense in an office. I promise you, it is way more intense if there's an actual pit with a bunch of bunch of people, men and women, and we're, we're all within close proximity to each other. And you're behind on your quota for the month. And Johnny keeps getting up to ding the gong that he got into their qualified meeting.

[00:20:41] Like it was an intense environment and he's hearing everything you're saying on every call everyone's hearing. Yeah. You're like trying to lean into your laptop and like, Hey, uh, oh yeah. Janice. Uh, hi. Yeah, this is Kevin with my. You know, it was me there's pros and cons to that though. There is, there is, I I'm glad I think every Salesforce should go through it at least once.

[00:20:59] Like I am, I I'm invigorated when I get into those sort of environments, it brings out a side of me that I'm like, yeah. Right. Cause I'm like an athlete. Like I loved high school football. I played all four years for a championship team. Like, uh, So the story is the reason I'm so into cold calling is this story is I'm in the elevator on the way up my startup, we raised 12 million bucks.

[00:21:24] We bought a floor of 1 0 1 west Broadway in downtown San Diego. And we're in the LOL elevator on the way up guy gets in and he sees me and my two BDR buddies. And we're like, you know, we're in Silicon valley stuff like mine, touch shirt or whatever. And he goes, huh, mine touch. What do you guys. And I was like, oh, well, mine touches, uh, well, you know what?

[00:21:46] It's not, it's not a knowledge base. Okay. It's not a knowledge base. It's a, you know, it's a, w we do some technical talk it's customer journey. It's, it's all about at the end of the day, it's about an engagement channel for the COO and then ding door's open and the guy walks out. Oh, okay. See you later. And I'm like, okay.

[00:22:10] And that, that, that really happened to me. And I was like, holy cow, like I was, I couldn't even articulate to a random person what we did. Let's let's double tap on that a little bit. If, if you were in that same elevator today, still an SDR at MindTouch just rolling with it. How would you do that? Different.

[00:22:36] Uh, what so knowing, knowing what mine touched does, and I just find her navigating that conversation. Cause like, let's just give it an example where typical cold caller calling spewing a bunch of features and benefits and pitching too early. Right. Which is kind of what you were doing in that scenario, in the elevator though in front of a real person.

[00:22:55] So if we take that, okay. That's how a lot of people were making calls to. Yeah, should they be doing it differently? And we'll take it back to the example just to make it interesting. Have Kevin hop in his now future self, so elevator. So what, yeah. So one of the things, one of the things that like I try and do with the SDRs that I mentor and I coach is help them put what they're selling into the bigger context.

[00:23:22] Okay. Oh, it blows my mind. Cause I was that kid who didn't understand that my company solving my piece of the problem, the way that we think it should be solved in the market was a player among a giant field of players. Right. I didn't understand that contextually what this really did and it's because they didn't teach me that.

[00:23:48] Right. And I didn't know anything. So, what I try to teach the STRs is I say, okay, cool. Your company does this. Here's a list of competitors you might run into. Here's how their pros and cons, here's how it fits into the bigger landscape. When you talk to someone, they might say this, and that means that they are thinking this way.

[00:24:06] So bring that back to the elevator. Right? So in the elevator, I would keep it super high level with this guy. And I would tell him, What my company did from a category perspective and who we served from a best customer fit perspective. So if you got 10 seconds in an elevator, that's the easiest way to do it.

[00:24:24] Oh, mine touch. Yeah. It's technical technical documentation software that digitizes user manuals. It makes it really easy for people to find things. We mostly work with like, you know, uh, uh, ultra Lux or whatever. The, the washing machine companies, you know, like companies that have giant user manuals and want to be an authority online.

[00:24:43] That's what we do. We digitize stuff like that. Create it. Microphone. And he'd be like, oh, okay. Interesting. I think I might need that. I think so. So the next thing out of my mouth would have been, yeah. What is your company? Right. And then he would say, oh, well, we're a law office. Which every other it's funny because there was so many lawyers in this, in this building, there have so many lawyers and they are like buttoned up, you know, like wearing these suits and ties and like, like Italian leather shoes.

[00:25:10] And we're walking in. A bunch of degenerate 20 three-year-old SDRs, like smelling like booze from Sunday fun day on a Monday, like with the, you know, start-up garb on. And it was a funny dichotomy. But if, let's say for instance, he's like, oh, well I worked for a manufacturing company that, that manufacturers, you know, desks, then I'd say, oh, interesting.

[00:25:32] A lot of our best customers are manufacturers. Maybe we should have a discussion about how we're helping them change their, their customer journey. Would that be. Bye. What's he going to say? No? Yeah. He's going to say yes. Right? So, so especially when it comes to like understanding it's, it's, there's, there's the pitch, right?

[00:25:53] When you're cold calling, you should know who you're calling. You should know what role they play in their organization and why that's relevant, what business challenge you could solve for them. And then you need to have a very specialized, differentiated pitch for them. But when you're walking around and this is a skill too, like when you go to conferences, It should be really high level and then you should just allow this person to categorize really quickly.

[00:26:16] Oh, okay. So you guys do like technical documentation. Oh, okay. Digitize and use your manuals. Like all you have to say is digitizing user manuals, people go thing. Right? Of course. If you get into a demo, they is going to go on and on and on about customer journey, micro content snippets on Google, all that stuff.

[00:26:34] But don't talk about. When you first meet somebody, right? Like it's, it's not that hard. Um, it's, it's, it's hard for a lot of SDR BDRs, right? Because it's like something that they've been taught in training and they're comfortable they're right. And they think that, oh, I gotta talk about the product and how awesome it is.

[00:26:55] Uh, Um, I'm actually at that point right now with one of my clients where the BDRs are doing really good, they're setting really consistent meetings, and I'm starting to get them involved more and more and learning about the product. But every time we learn about the products I ask them, I'm like, is this something you would talk about on a cold call?

[00:27:15] And sometimes they go, Hmm. Yeah. I might I'd say no, no, no, no, no, no. Like why would you ever bring this up on a cold call, right? Yeah. That's a great, that's a great point, right? Because it's important to know the product and what it does and the solutions and the problems. It solves to drive conversations on a cold call, but not the.

[00:27:36] That's right. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's about driving conversation. It's not so, so I had an STR yesterday at one of my clients that I listened to his call and he proactively, when the client said, yeah, I have this business challenge. He practically started asking more technical questions and I was like, Screech, you know, like, imagine you're on the bus and in the old days you just pulled the thing and the bus would stop right there.

[00:28:01] You're doing, doing, let me off the bus. Yeah. Close for the meeting right then. And there, don't try to go down the river with this guy on technical stuff. Cold calling and top of funnel is about aligning business challenges and valuable outcomes and having high level discussions about that. And then that's when sales starts.

[00:28:18] Right? So on my podcast, I had Nelson Guild. And it, him and I had a really good conversation. He he's a big advocate once again, for demand generation. And we had a great conversation about the difference between like BDR, top of funnel work and actual sales. And he's got a lot of radical ideas around it.

[00:28:37] He wrote a book called death of the STR. You know, I, I love contrary and people I really do so him and I are him and I are fast friends now because I'm the STR guy and he's the dead SDR guy. So I would, we find that on your bookshelf, like, you're not going to find it on my bookshelf, but, but, but you gotta, you gotta listen to everybody out there.

[00:28:57] So he, so he, he brings up a really good point that the art and science of getting someone to take a meeting is different at the hardest. Then sales, like actual consultated selling involves relationships involves being super concentrated, really good listening, and like, you know, there's elements of BDR work.

[00:29:15] But at the end of the day, there's so much of a numbers game to be played on the BDR front. That really good sellers don't always make really good prospectors. Right. So that's another topic that, you know, we can go in on, but I guess my one quote, there is really good seller. Don't always make really good prospectors and really good prospectors tend to think that they have to go be sellers.

[00:29:37] I don't think so. I think that there is a world where STRs people who are really good at opening the door can make well into the six figures, just being. Uh, BDR type guy, right? I do really well for myself, my family owning a house. So the California, I'm a BDR guy, not a big, closer guy, so it's totally possible.

[00:29:57] So if you're listening to this and you're thinking to yourself, shoot, I like the BDR stuff a lot more than I like the stuff. There's a world for that. There are companies out there that value that enough, that you'll get paid handsomely to open. Wow, Kevin, it's been awesome having you on, uh, really enjoyed the conversation.

[00:30:16] Where can people get into your world? Great question. Uh, my podcast is the number one way that you can get into my world. Learn more about me. It's called the sales career podcast. You can find it anywhere you find podcasts. You can also find it on YouTube. Uh, I did an in home. Podcast the other day with my guy Ronin PSR.

[00:30:36] And it's a really cool three angle, Joe Rogan style podcast interview. It's on YouTube, but yeah, go, go to the sales career podcast, hit subscribe, check out some of the episodes. Every Thursday I drop a new one and, uh, look forward to connecting you from there. Awesome. We will drop the link in the show notes.

[00:30:54] So you can subscribe to the sales career podcast and get into Kevin's world. Uh, if you enjoy today's episode, please write us a review, share the show with your friends. It really does help us out. And I'm always listening for your feedback. You can go to sales transformation. Dot FM drop me a voice DM and I will get back to you.

[00:31:12] Hey, you stuck around that tells me you're serious about your own sales transformation. If you're tired of doing things the old way and want to get started in your journey with other people on the same path, head over to sales, cast.community, and crush your numbers on your leaderboard. Yeah. It's free sales cast.community.

[00:31:29] Send me a DM with your best pitch and mention this ad. And I might even give you free access to our best templates.