Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Dec. 29, 2021

#220 S2 Episode 89 - From Working In The Kitchen To Changing The Sales Profession with James Buckley

This episode of the Sales Transformation Podcast with Collin Mitchell features James Buckley, Chief Evangelist at JB Sales and the host of the Uncrushed Podcast. James talks about his experience as a veteran salesperson and coach, and points out some of the many problems that plague both sellers and buyers alike. James hammers on his point about sellers being value providers and wants to do away with the perception of untrustworthiness that often follows sales professionals.

James also talks about enhancing the customer experience as being as, if not more important than the product or service being sold. Nowadays and into the foreseeable future, ensuring after-sales customer satisfaction is now part of the sales process that must be honed and improved by sales teams.

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  • Moving away from addiction and the kitchen to sales
  • Use all the channels available to you as a salesperson
  • Sales is about providing value, not persuasion and trickery
  • Find the people who resonate with you and sell to them
  • Customer experience is just as important as the product
  • It takes more than just one conversation to close a sale
  • SDRs need to be more proactive in handing off clients to AEs
  • Know your real worth as a front-line salesperson


James: "Omnipresence will win the day in 2022."

James: "These types of knowledge points to open with and build rapport with becomes something that are expected by the time you finally connect with someone because you're so active in their day to day routines. It's a given that they're gonna talk to you. It's a matter of what we're gonna say to each other now."

James: "It's like this mentality that's developed in our system over the course of the last decade or so where we believe our job is to convince, persuade and trick people into buying from us. This is not the way in 2022. This is the way to get bad reviews. This is the way for people to tell 10,000 others in their network not to do business with you." 

James: "I think people will pay more for a better customer experience all day, everyday. Especially if you can articulate the value in an effective manner, it's really difficult to say no to you."

Collin: "For me, the question is how are you going to, as a sales organization, start to focus on more quality over quantity, and not try to play the numbers game."

James: "The science is very clear, we know, 16 to 20 touches is what it takes to generate a meaningful conversation with a cold prospect. So, most people giving up after six, you're not even halfway there." 

James: "Know your real worth as a front-line salesperson and don't tie it to a number. Tie it to the impact that you can have on others and their lives and their routines. Your true worth lies right there, if you just focus right there for a minute."

Learn more about James in the links below:

Learn more about Collin in the link below: 

Also, you can join our community by checking out If you're a sales professional looking to take your career to greater heights, please visit us at and set a call with Collin and Chris.

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[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell, and this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.

[00:00:24] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation. This is an episode that is long time coming. I got my man, James, say what sales Buckley is in the. So you better stick around. Cause you know, he's going to be dropping some fire. If you don't know who James say, what sales is, get out from under a rock.

[00:00:43] If you're in sales and maybe this is your opportunity to get to know him. He's the chief evangelist over at JB sales. She's had the pleasure of joining some of the best minds in the business today. Educating millions of salespeople throughout. James welcome to the show. Yes. Thank you. My man. And you're right.

[00:00:58] This is a long time coming and I owe you the deepest of apologies for letting it go this. Yeah, you got to bring the heat now to make up for the, for the last time. I know, finally, you admitted openly that finding time is a struggle and you're going to figure it out the way we were talking about it right before the call.

[00:01:15] That's my mission in 2022 is to find more time. Wish me luck yet. Yeah. There's I mean, if you find an extra an hour in the 24 hour day, let me know. Cause. I'm starting my days off at 5:00 AM these days. So it's going to be, if I can find more time there, maybe. Yeah. You know, I think the key is like finding things that lights you up and energize you.

[00:01:34] Right? Because then you don't feel so exhausted. I'd imagine you're a guy, you know, similar to myself that probably has 8, 10, 12, 15 meetings in one day. Sometimes probably a lot to do. Um, but it's always nice to find time to do things like this. So I'm super curious. I've been following your content for a while.

[00:01:48] I'm a big. Um, as many people in sales are, but I want to just get the full, you know, James say what sales story here? Like, where did your, you know, maybe take us back before you got into sales or when you first got into sales, just kick it off and let's, let's take it from there. Uh, prior to sales, I was in the kitchen.

[00:02:07] I used to be a cook, uh, prior. And, and, you know, if you, if you've got experience in the kitchen or if you know, people that have experience in the restaurant industry in general, you know, Drug use is pretty, pretty heavy in that industry, that space. And I got into Coke pretty bad down in Miami, and I was an addict for a long time.

[00:02:25] And then I moved to Tennessee to get away from it almost died. Um, in fact, if you want to listen to it, there's a make it happen. Monday's episode with John Barrows, where I explained the entire back history, but the short story is, uh, went to the hospital and they did this x-ray of my. So they could show me this picture of my heart.

[00:02:42] And it was like pushing on my rib cage and the guy, the doctor was like, yo man, at any moment, like you could just die like right here. And no one, no one would be able to save you. Like your heart would just give out rupture burst. And there you go, like eight seconds you'd be gone. So I kind of scared the shit out of me.

[00:02:58] And I ended up moving away and I ended up landing here in the smokey mountains of east Tennessee. And that. 16 years ago, uh, best move I ever made because I ended up going back to college and sobering up and meeting my wife. Uh, and I ended up getting a degree in writing communications. When I graduated somebody posted on Facebook that their company's Cirrus insight was hiring salespeople.

[00:03:21] I responded on Facebook, landed the interview, got the job. That was my intro 2000 late, 2014 into SAS. I didn't even know what Salesforce was at the time, but I had done sales in and out of the kitchens at B2B resident or B2B door to door and door to door residential. So I had a little bit of sales experience in the past.

[00:03:42] Uh, but then like I hit my stride. I really have no, like, you know, that, that feeling that people get when you meet someone new or when you have to do public speaking and you have that, like that gut wrenching feeling inside that you can't get away with. I'm pretty confident I was born without one of those.

[00:03:57] So this was like my comfort zone talking to strangers and I felt real comfortable doing it. That's when I decided I wanted to do this for like, as long as possible. Wow. From not knowing well, I mean, just to go back for a second incredible story, um, you know, they got you're here to tell it, right. Number one.

[00:04:18] Um, and then, and then from just like little, little, you know, not much sales experience to just going right into. And not even knowing what Salesforce is going into SAS, it's like, boom, lots of things to learn in that first role. I'm curious, what is, was there anything that you struggled with or you just extremely excelled with in that first super fortunate because in 2014, at the time, There were no competitors for Cirrus insight.

[00:04:44] It was a Salesforce and inbox integration tools for Gmail. So they were focused primarily on SMB and mid-market for Gmail using organizations. They hadn't rolled out the outlook integration yet. So enterprise was kind of hit or miss most enterprises still use outlook and not g-mail for what that's worth to those of you out there in the email space.

[00:05:02] Uh, but it was actually a super easy pitch for me. When I first got there day one, all I had was the. And I didn't have, I didn't have serious insight. Zack matters. My boss at the time was like, oh no, you gotta, you gotta learn Salesforce. So it wasn't allowing me to use the tool that I was selling because for the first month he wanted me to really see what the lift was like, right.

[00:05:24] Like, Hey, this is what it is to adopt Salesforce. This is why, what we do is important. So once I was through that mess, I was immediately given Cirrus insight. And then my pitch changed. Right. It went from. Hi, this is James and I'm with, and we do too are using Salesforce because you got to see this, oh, this changed my life.

[00:05:47] Right. And then I would, I started that way and it almost immediately pivoted into, hi, thanks for taking the call. Do you know that you can work in Salesforce from your inbox? And I would open with a discovery question and it was a yes or no close ended, but almost every time, because we were the only ones in the space.

[00:06:06] And I would say, I would love to show you that when are you free? And that was literally my cold call strategy, dude. No kidding. I think I scheduled 56 demos in a week or in a month using that strategy. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I love the thing I love most about that story is that you got to actually experience the pain.

[00:06:26] Firsthand that your prospects had like, yeah. So not, not a lot of sellers get to do that. They don't, they might high level, you know, macro level maybe kind of understand like, okay, here's the problems we solve. But very few sales people can say, I have experienced that pain. And I know exactly what it's like and like what a super power to be able to sell against that pain when you've experienced it firsthand, it became, it became the story that I would tell.

[00:06:55] Later when I got really polished and I understood the tech behind what we were doing, and I learned a little bit about what Salesforce was and what they did from there. All I, all I did was get put on airplanes and they just sent me to all the Salesforce world tour Zack and I traveled the globe for two years straight, just doing Salesforce events, meeting people high five, you know, take a selfie with.

[00:07:16] The prospecting strategies I had were bananas because like I'm taking selfies with people at shows and then being like, what's your cell, I'll send it to you. And then capturing their cell number and calling them the next week and being like great to meet you last week. Right? I'm closing like nine out of 10 of these deals.

[00:07:34] Yeah. Before, like people even knew, like you could actually prospect on the cell phone. I think it's starting to take a turn. I mean, I'm sure you've recently seen the cold FaceTiming trends that everybody talks about. I don't know, man. I think we're headed in that direction, but I think it's premature.

[00:07:49] That's my opinion. Yeah. There's still a lot of people. It's a good topic. Let's let's spend a little time here. Um, there's still a lot of people that get pissy when you call them on the cell phone. I mean, Uh, I'm okay with you getting Fitzy. It's all right. What number do you prefer that I thought I love that, right?

[00:08:10] Oh, I'd rather you not dial. I'll see. You prefer email, right? This email I have for you. Is that right? Okay, cool. I'll shoot you an email. Thanks again. My, my email will have a video. Most likely. Yeah. Hey person. I'm going to get my fucking message across regardless. Like it's not easy to ignore.

[00:08:31] Well, the problem is when people go all in on one channel, right. And then like, oh, it doesn't work. Omnipresence wins the day in 2022. Let me say it one more time for the fuckers in the back that aren't listening. Um, the presence will win the day in 2022. If, if I am prospecting your company and you are my decision maker and or someone I believe could give me great discovery.

[00:08:52] Dude by the time we connect. I know most of the things I need to know about you. Hey, Greg wedding in Detroit last week, I really loved the color scheme you went with. It really looked beautiful on Instagram. Hey, sorry about your dog passing last week. That's really shitty. I remember when my dog passed, it was a tough move.

[00:09:12] These types of knowledge points to open with and to build rapport. Becomes something that are expected by the time you finally connect with someone because you are so active in their day-to-day routines, it's a given that they're going to talk to you. It's a matter of what we're going to say to each other now.

[00:09:29] Yeah. But so many people are still lazy and not taking the time to get those insights to have a meaningful conversation. Well, that's because it's not a meaningful conversation for most people, for most people. It's self-serving right. This is the difference. Saying something like, Hey, what do you know about Salesforce?

[00:09:47] And do you use Salesforce? Yes. Yeah. Check. Right. That's the difference? Because when I say, what do you know about Salesforce? You gotta tell me what you know about Salesforce. Oh, we use it in house. Okay. Big adopter, but I do use it every day. It's kind of like my digital Rolodex where you're like, ah, we don't really use it here.

[00:10:05] Right. This is conversational discovery. Now it's, it's veered away from the standard barrage of questions that we typically would hear from a prospect or a. Yeah. You mean the, the qualifying interrogation, those are still useful. Like I listened to, I think there's nothing wrong with saying I have three or four questions I have to ask you, and then we can have a real conversation.

[00:10:25] Is that cool? Yeah. Yeah. But most people are setting the stage that way. They're just going straight into the. A hundred percent. The problem you have is not that they want to ask questions. It's the questions that they ask are very well-known. John tells this great story for those of you that don't know John Barrows, my boss, my friend will tell you this story.

[00:10:42] He used feel, felt found for a long time. If you're not familiar, it's when you say to somebody that's on the, on there, on the sales call, you know, I understand how you feel. People like you have felt. Or we talked to this person and they felt this way, what they found was right. Feel, felt, found that line of thinking that linear thought process was really useful and very popular back in the day.

[00:11:05] But it's very well known. Now, if you're talking to a buyer that's over 45 and you say, feel, felt found there's a high likelihood, they're going to say, Hey guy, don't feel. If you're using bat and you're like, Hey, so have you guys talked about budget? And your very next question is, are you the decision maker?

[00:11:23] Every buyer will turn to you and say, Hey, bro, don't ban me. Yeah, yeah. Or they, they try to put some lipstick on it and say, what's your average deal size. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's like this mentality that's developed in our system over the course of the last decade or so, where we believe our job is to convince, persuade and trick people into buying from us.

[00:11:44] This is not the way in 2022. This is the way to get bad reviews. This is the way for people to tell 10,000 others in their network, not to do business with you. This is the way to start beef on social media, which only creates more negativity. It's not a good. Right. I know just as many people that are huge grant Cardone fans, as people that say that guy's a big bag of dicks and that's just because you love him or you hate him and there's no comfortable, medium.

[00:12:10] We never want to be in that bucket. And no sellers should strive for that bucket. You should strive for the bucket where everybody sees you as a valuable resource loving. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how does a seller go about doing that? What things should they be doing in 2022? Um, to be giving off that experience to the people that they have conversations with, or that are in their network, look for the points where you might clash with your prospects and avoid those early, be proactive about them.

[00:12:37] So there's, you know, I talked about this with you when we talked about what we were going to discuss, and there's a lot of ways that buyers and sellers clash today, but. But, but I agree that the selling process usually could be improved in most instances, but there's such a huge population of people that they're not even talking about how broken the buying process can be.

[00:12:59] Right. And that's a two-way road when you're talking about an improvement in the buying and selling process. Um, so I always use this PRI this pricing example for chatbox, because there's two types of people that come into chatbots. There's people that are like, hi, I have questions about this. Can someone reach out to me?

[00:13:16] Usually these are very valued and interested parties, but the other side of that coin are the people that come in. And the first thing out of their mouth is pricing question, mark. Right. That is an unfair thing to do to a seller or just a random support person. That's sitting on the other side of that screen, looking at that comment pricing, all caps question, mark.

[00:13:39] I don't even know what you want. Yeah. I don't even know what you're looking for. Sometimes I have several things. My company does pricing for what? Yeah. Right. There's a whole discovery process, but. We're at odds with the buyer and we're at odds with our leadership on what the best practices. We're getting it from both sides.

[00:14:01] Buyers want us to be professional and be persistent, but they don't want to be annoyed. Right? You can't, you can't have both. You can't be like, Hey, you need to be more persistent or you're not doing a good enough job getting my attention. And then at the same time, be like, stop trying to get my attention.

[00:14:21] So, uh, I talked about the events, right? Yeah. And I use this, this example to like types of people, right? Yeah. I think, I think we've all met people before in our history where we've met them and we're like, I love that person. And you have no idea why something about them rubs you the right way, their vibe, their energy, something about them you really gravitate towards.

[00:14:43] And conversely, we've all met people before where we shake hands and we're like, if I ever see that fucking prick again, it's going to be way too soon. And I don't even, I don't even know why a hundred percent. Right. And it's an in sales. Our job is to find the, the, the, the ladder and not the former. If we find the people that we gravitate towards and they gravitate towards us, we have a much higher likelihood of having success, selling to those people for every person.

[00:15:11] That's like, I don't like your vibe. Someone out there sells really well to them. There's a personality match that's happening. So what can they do in 2020 to find the personality matches, put content out there that leads people to believe that they should be connected to you, put stuff out there that's real.

[00:15:29] That's relevant to the industry that you work in, the people that you serve, the problems that you solve. Don't talk about your product. Stop. This nasty. Don't do it right, but like create content out there and pull them towards. 'cause that's, that's the best thing to do in 2022, stop chasing it. If you're chasing it, you're going to be chasing the rest of the year, chase the ones that are coming towards you, you'll meet them much faster.

[00:15:54] And, and, and, and just to kind of tie it back right. To the chat bot, right. The people that are like, Hey, I have some questions or Hey pricing, right? Yeah. So with a content strategy as a. If you're a TA, you're putting out that type of content, like you mentioned, you're attracting these people that are typically going to enjoy your vibe or hit it off with you or enjoy doing business, or want to do business.

[00:16:17] When you hop on calls with those people, they already feel like you're like, like we're friends, we're bros. Like I know you I've been watching your journey. I've been hearing your struggles. I've been seeing you, you know, hitting the gym at 5:00 AM every week. I've already pretty much decided I want to do business with you.

[00:16:37] It's just a matter of like, Hey, can you fix this problem at a reasonable price? Well, you know, at a reasonable prices, even negligible at this point, I think people will pay more for a better customer experience all day, every day. If you can articulate the value in an effective manner, it's really difficult to say no.

[00:16:54] If you can't articulate that value and you're relying on the product, you know, you might run a risk of having a better customer experience, beat you out. My opinion is that most buyers today that are looking to solve sign annual contracts. Let me be very specific, looking to sign annual contracts. Those buyers want the full gambit of customer experience.

[00:17:15] Don't sell me something and then fucking vanish. Right? I don't want to have this sitting here not being used. Like that's a waste of my time. Effort, money, resources. Right. And they're looking for that kind of experience. When I hired my personal trainer at national fitness center, that was the first thing I said, look, I need someone that's going to be on a tax basis with me, somebody that's going to hit me up and be like, how's it going?

[00:17:36] What'd you eat today? Right. That's the kind of stuff that's important for me in a personal trainer. If you can provide that experience, I'm fine with it. No, no hard feelings, but I will go elsewhere to find that well, sure enough, guess who they found someone that will do that. Right. And I happily paid for it, but this is the difference.

[00:17:55] That's shifting very, very, to my delight. It's shifting in this direction in the buying and selling world. Transparency is everything right now. You have to be fully transparent with the people that you sell to. Yeah. I mean, uh, I talked about this with Taka pony, right? Getting, getting, being proactive about things like getting in front of like, if there's areas that you're not strong with, or if pricing is going to be an issue, like get some of those things.

[00:18:22] And in the conversation early to either qualify or disqualify and it's okay if, Hey, it's not a good fit or you don't have budget. Like we can move on and be friends. Maybe I can point you in the right direction, but you should only be spending time with people that, you know, have a higher likely that to close, rather than just putting a bunch of fluff of anybody who's willing to have a conversation with you.

[00:18:41] So you're right. This does, but there's two, there's two sides to that coin. Yeah. You should probably spend time with the people that are most likely to close, but yeah. Never spend time with strangers that you don't know if they're going to close, how will you, how will they ever become those people that are most likely to close you won't ever know?

[00:18:57] So while I agree, we can't also take away from. New prospecting, new conversations. You can't have somebody that just reaches out to strangers all day long and then be like, Hey, where are the results I'm reaching out to strangers? Like it takes time. It takes consistency. It takes more than one touch sometimes, right?

[00:19:17] It takes a scheduled call. It takes a lot of effort. And then here's what happens. And I've said this many times, An SDR, for example, might earn a meeting after three months of consistent prospecting and then they turn around and they get this person to trust them enough, to take the demo, to see the product, to really investigate.

[00:19:36] And they hand them to a stranger that is most likely not as emotionally invested in that conversation. So the passion for all that months of outreach gets disconnected and transferred over to this person. Who's just going through the most. No control of the STR STR has done a great job qualifying.

[00:19:54] You've done a great job discovering, but this person they're not as emotionally invested because they didn't source that deal. And it didn't come from marketing. This is the relationship issue that we face in 2022 that has to start getting examined. We have to start examining this relationship and how it works between seller and buyer and the people that sell it as a team.

[00:20:16] And we have to. What makes the best buyer, because let me tell you, most people have their ICP all wrong. Um, all right. So I have two questions. We're going to get back to that. People have their ICP wrong. Cause I want to dig into that. But before we dig into that, I got to touch back on the handoff. Right?

[00:20:35] Okay. So SDR, you know, let's just play out a scenario here. Been following James for three months, consuming as con. Calling him finally got him to commit to a meeting, gets handed off to somebody who has just a, just another meeting on their calendar template. Yeah, maybe they show up late to the meeting, you know, sometimes and really just going to hit play on demo and probably don't even care whether the deal moves forward.

[00:21:09] Yeah. You know, this potential S you know, this SDR has been DM-ing you sending you messages, maybe even cold FaceTime, do you? I don't know. Uh, but however, secured. Has somewhat of a relationship established, super pumped high five. The team member finally got a meeting with James. Okay. Handoff happens, you know, all that work, all that energy, all that knowledge that's been, you know, built into the relationship is gone.

[00:21:40] So what's the solution. Well, first of all, I think that SCR should have shown up to the meeting. He said, I think that SDR should probably spend at least three to five minutes, edifying the person they're about to hand me to this is this person. This is what they do. You can ask them any questions about X, Y, or Z that you like.

[00:22:00] I'm going to be in the background, but I'll be in the chat. If you need anything, feel free to hit the chat and I'll answer any questions you have. Also, don't hesitate to ask this person questions moving forward, because now they're going to be your point of contact moving forward. I'll say connected though.

[00:22:15] So if you need anything and you can't get ahold of this person, I'm always here for a backup. These types of conversations provide a level of service, a starting point for the level of service they can expect to do if they decide to do business with you moving forward. But if you're going to work for three months to get the demo with me, show up to the fucking.

[00:22:35] Yeah, right. Even if it's just for a minute to introduce me to the person that's going to give the demo, I'm fine with that. But that's smooth transition, very helpful. Right. Also might, if they sit in the background and enough demos, who knows, maybe they'll learn how to do an effective demo. Isn't that the goal of that SDR in most instances to eventually become an AA, maybe become a CS manager, maybe become an onboarding person, maybe become a trainer.

[00:23:03] Right. Upward mobility, but we don't think about these things. What we think about is that short-term goal of closing that. Or even even more to the point is just, I got to go get the next meeting. I got to go get the next meeting. Right. I don't even care about that show up to the demo that one's done. I gotta go get more, whatever I gotta do.

[00:23:23] Right.

[00:23:26] That means done. It's in the can. What do you mean you want me to show up? You want me to actually care about the handoff in the person rather than just the transaction? Well, it's a, it's a lot, it's a lot to take in when you think about being proactive like that, right? Because the immediate pushback that you're going to get is going to be some shit like, well, I can't have my SDR showing up to all these meetings, right.

[00:23:52] Oh. But you expect them to deliver on those meetings when you decide that they should become an a E two years before. But you're never going to let them sit in on those meetings, right? Like, because it's a waste of their time. Like this is stuff that you hear and you think to yourself, like, man, that's such a short-sighted way to.

[00:24:12] Nevermind. The fact that the customers are extra prickly over the last 18 months to two years. And you gotta be like stupid, unique, very different. Hyper-relevant super personalized. If you want to make an impact at a mid-market or enterprise level, more transactional on the SMB side, but we can talk about.

[00:24:32] Yeah. Okay. So the question did those people that give that sort of pushback, if you're one of those people in your listening is what is the goal here? Leader sales boss. Is it meetings or closed win deals and having your SDR show? Having a smooth handoff, having that transparency, trying to, you know, continue the momentum of the good experience that the person that just agreed to the mirror, the meeting is having you want to do you want to win more deals?

[00:25:01] You want more deals to move forward? Or do you just want more meetings, right. And to give you more context sales leaders out there, what is the purpose of scheduling 25 meetings? If, you know, as the person setting those. There's a very low likelihood that even one of them is going to close. The company is paying out for deals that have no intention of closing.

[00:25:22] That makes no sense from a financial perspective for the company that you work for and your AEs are spinning their wheels, doing demos for people that have no intention of buying from. This is a huge problem in our space that almost nobody talks about and SDRs are encouraged to make more calls, send more emails, do more activity, but they're just scheduling meetings faster that have less likelihood of closing.

[00:25:46] And then you're bitching at the AEs for not getting their number. It's a vicious cycle. I mean, it even puts the pressure on the SDRs. Book meetings that no are not even good meetings. It's just, I just got to book another meeting. I know that this may not probably, if I develop a script that I know works and I'm playing the law of averages, which is the old way of sales, not the new way of sales.

[00:26:09] The old way of sales is the law of averages. More doors, more phone calls, more conversations, more. More that's the way. And I develop a script and I know that like I can set meetings 6, 7, 8, 10 a day with this script, and I don't give a shit if they close how invested in my and the company's success.

[00:26:29] Not much, not even. But this is one of the biggest problems that we have with the predictable revenue model that's separation of rules. I think this is eventually going to go away and we're going to see something tickets place or predictable revenue model will shift and morph into something different, which I think we're currently seeing.

[00:26:50] Right? Very naturally. We're seeing these splits inbound versus outbound and marketing and sales alignment. Right. Focus. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to, yeah. I mean, I guess the, the question is how, how are you going to as a sales organization, start to focus on more quality over quantity and not try to play the numbers game.

[00:27:11] How do we scale quality outreach? That's the real. And I think so sales, loft, state a shout out sales loft. They report over, uh, like 15, 20% personalization as the sweet spot. So here's my question to the frontline sellers that are listening to this podcast. Why wouldn't you customize your first 10 minutes?

[00:27:31] Make them small, make them sweet, make them easy to customize. And if you can't get the result, you're looking for, with an omnipresent 10 touch sequence of touchpoints, then let the big machine take over and use a nurture campaign to hit them consistently once, twice a week, whatever you feel is necessary for your vertical, your ICP, your personas, your industry, you know that I feel like that flow.

[00:27:55] And then you can wrap up. If you want to, I would say don't wrap up a cadence for someone that never responded to you, but you can wrap up with more personalization at the end if you like. But that flow seems very reasonable to me in 2022, personalized 10 messages, earn that reply and then move to the automated side and test new things out.

[00:28:15] If you can't get the reply that way, I feel like that strategy alone will change the game for many sellers out there through this. Yeah. I mean, most people are only personalizing the first touch. If you're lucky in a lot of ways, they give up after six touches and the science is very clear. We know 16 to 20 touches is what it takes to generate a meaningful conversation with a cold prospect.

[00:28:36] So most people giving up after six. You're not even halfway there. All right. Let's it's time now to go back to most people don't even know. They're properly know their ICP. Tell me more, what does that mean? So I feel like we, we zero in, on a, on a, an ICP, right? So let's say for the sake of argument that our markers for someone that I would want to sell to would be, they need to be at a $10 million ARR organization, annual reoccurring revenue organization that has a 50 or more employees.

[00:29:09] Let's say that. That's my marker. What about all the variables that we've led? Like what industry do they function in? Right. What about, what about what their background was before they were in that industry? Does that transfer over? Right? Can you use that to identify an ICP? Probably. What about, what about the funding piece of it?

[00:29:33] Right. When was the last time they got funding? Right. What about triggers that we find things about this company that are. In real time that happened yesterday, right? I mean, some examples. Sure. So I don't sell to retail, but if dollar general reached out and said on LinkedIn that they were going to release an application and they're going hard with B to C through an order app and they were going to do away with local stores, I would go straight to dollar general.

[00:30:05] And I would say, let me show you how to sell some software. That's not my ICP. I don't sell to retail, but that triggered event makes them someone that I could benefit. Yeah. So where, where do sellers look for these trigger triggered events? So I have a few spots. First of all, we always talk about our, our scrape.

[00:30:24] We always talk about Feedly Feedly is great. LinkedIn sales navigator has an alerts that you can set up so that when things happen at companies, you get an email to you that says, Hey, this happened, you can set up that. To send it to you. You can use tweet deck, and you can look at different hashtags for the companies that you're prospecting and find those triggers.

[00:30:43] And this is probably one of the best ones. I love this one. This is a real tactic. I'm gonna give this to you on this podcast. I feel like this is real shit. If you're like me and you like to write your top prospects, the ones that you really want reach out to their leadership, that people you're going to sell to and tell them you want to write an article about their industry and you want to interview them.

[00:31:02] Then write the bam article, tag, the person, tagged the company and then reach out and say in the article we wrote together, you said this, I want to have a deeper conversation about it. You already sit in a place of value in the mind of this person. It will be impossible for them to deny you that opportunity to sell them something.

[00:31:25] Yeah, boom. That's all right. So now if you, you have no excuse to not look for those alerts and those triggers, because James just gave you several and even bonus hack on how to build a relationship in a different context, add value from day one and guaranteed time with your prospect. That's right. That's real time to that shit where you're asking questions.

[00:31:46] That's the position you need to be in. All right. All right. I mean, it's not for, I mean, I, I, my version of that is if you're a seller, you should have a podcast. I don't care what role you have. You should have a podcast. What is your podcast going to be with? You interviewing your prospects, opening doors, having conversations, asking them any question that you want.

[00:32:08] Um, who's going to listen to your podcast, maybe nobody, but who cares? We're having conversations. I want to challenge you and say it doesn't have to be about that. I want to say you could be in sales and have a podcast about Lego. You know what, dude, there are a bazillion people that are in leadership that also like Legos.

[00:32:27] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if he goes back to the point you made, right. People that are going to book meetings, they're going to be people that vibe with you. So if you can find a topic that's popular in. Find people that do I don't, I mean, I don't know how you're going to pull this off, but maybe it's a LinkedIn poll.

[00:32:43] Hey, who likes to talk about Legos? It's like, you think it's crazy, but I'm telling you, like finding the people that vibe with the shit you vibe for is healthier for your pipeline than anything else that you can do, because those people are most likely to engage. And that's what you're after nothing can happen until engagement takes place.

[00:33:04] Yeah. Maybe it's star wars maybe. You know, who knows something, something I met her. And it's a great thing to send people when you're prospecting them. Hey, did you know, I do this podcast. That's a great, like 10th touch and it also helps you create original content. Original content goes farther in the mind of your prospects, then reposting stuff from your company, reposting things from other sellers and other people that you vibe with.

[00:33:35] I'll tell you what you can avoid. And this is like big red flag for me. When I see shit like. If you're posting about politics, if you're posting about religion, if you're posting about legal's legal stuff and like, you know, political strife, I'm out, man. Like I'm not engaging like that. I want nothing to do with that.

[00:33:50] I will not touch it with a 10 foot pole. Uh, and that's damaging to your brand overall. That's damaging if you're on the job market right now and you're posting pro-Trump or anti-Trump shit, you have no idea. Who's looking at that profile and saying, well, that rules that person out, you have no idea with what you're doing.

[00:34:09] The D exactly. I mean, the days of, Hey, my LinkedIn is my business content and Twitter and Instagram and other things, or my personal goodbye. Say goodbye to that. I mean, no, you, no matter how tricky or careful or discrete you are, everybody can find that stuff if they want. Um, and so, and I've, I've, I've seen it damage people big time.

[00:34:33] It's hurt a lot of people because. Not assert their opinion. It's okay to have an opinion. Nobody's telling you, you can't have an opinion. What I am telling you is that that opinion shared publicly on that platform could yield a lot of stress and drama in your life that you don't need. And sometimes it'll cost you a car.

[00:34:53] Sometimes it'll cost you a candidate. Sometimes it'll cost you a job. So you want to be very cautious with how you represent yourself in 20, 22 online, because that's the first place people go. One of the number one things that people do when they talk to me is they go, man, you're everywhere. And I go, yeah, that's fine.

[00:35:11] That's good. It's supposed to be easy to find me, but what you want them to say. And I know this is true for you, but maybe, you know, make some people think is you're the same. You're the same dude everywhere, right? There's no like, Hey LinkedIn, James Twitter. James' Instagram James. It's the same James, regardless of.

[00:35:31] Nope. I will tell you that that's true for the entire JB sales team. I'm very fortunate to work with some very authentic folks, the same people that you see. Morgan, Jay, John, Chris, Megan, like all of us. We are the same people in real life. When you meet us as we are online. And some people really like that about us, but some people are like, wow, those people are a lot.

[00:35:50] And you know, To each their own man, like in the end, it's about the value that we can bring to your team. Your people elevate the sales profession to where it deserves to be. You know, I find it absurd that sales is both the highest and lowest paid profession in the world. I find it ridiculous that 47% of our Earth's population ends up in a sales role and there's no formal education for it.

[00:36:15] And most places I find it ridiculous. That leadership today is still cracking the web saying more and more and more. When the top performers will tell you, they do less, better. We have to make change if we want to see change. So let's do it together as a community of sellers that want to better the profession.

[00:36:34] I always say this thing to people, I say, have you ever bought a car? And they go, yeah. And I go, yeah, well, you're on the lot. You're looking at the car, you have the money in your bank account and you see the salesperson. And you're like, I got to get the fuck out of here immediately. Like I gotta go because you like to buy stuff, but you don't like to be sold stuff.

[00:36:54] Yeah, I think everybody can relate to that. Um, man, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks for coming on. Uh, where can people get into your world? Any final thoughts? Uh, so here's my final thought. Let me give you that first. My final thought is that know your real worth as a frontline salesperson and don't tie it to another.

[00:37:17] Tying it to the impact that you can have on others and their lives and their routines. Your true worth lies right there. If you just focus on it for a minute and then where you can reach me, you can follow me on Instagram at six. Sales all one word, uh, join us, become one of us on the dark side. Uh, we, where you can get access to all our training tips, techniques, takeaway strategies.

[00:37:43] It's all right there. Get certified. Um, and obviously following. At J Learn more. Follow us on LinkedIn. We love that. We're putting a lot of daily content out and, uh, yeah, I've never met a stranger in my life. So don't hesitate to reach out if I can be valuable to anyone that's listening to this podcast saying, Hey, that guy, I could learn some shit from.

[00:38:03] Awesome. Thanks so much. Uh, we will drop all those links in the show notes for everyone. If you enjoy today's episode rise, review, share the show with your friends. It really does help us out. And we're also listening for your feedback. You can drop me a voice, and I will get back to you.

[00:38:22] Hey, you stuck around that tells me you're serious about your own sales transformation. If you're tired of doing things the old way and want to get started in your journey with other people on the same page. Head over to sales, and crush your numbers on your leaderboard. Yeah. It's free sales

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