This episode of the Sales Transformation Podcast with Collin Mitchell features Tim Clarke, founder and CEO of Uncrushed, a platform and community for mental health awareness.
Tim has been working in Salesforce for 9 years and counting, first as an enterprise AE, then Senior Director for Product Marketing. In those 9 years, he found success in his career, but was also secretly suffering due to the combined stresses of work as well as having to deal with the tragic loss of his father in 2013.
Without a good way to process his emotions and cope with his grief, Tim turned to alcoholism and substance abuse. One day, healized what these unhealthy coping mechanisms did to his mental health, and decided to pursue a healthier avenue. His efforts with mental health awareness are contained with Uncrushed.org, an initiative that wants to break the stigma around mental health and create an environment of vulnerability and courage.
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Tim: “Drugs and alcohol they're just the surface level things. My core issue is that I didn't know how to handle my emotions or process them healthily.”
Tim: “Addiction doesn't discriminate. It can just come up in many forms whether it's pills, or dugs, or alcohol, sex, love, social media, work, I believe that everyone has some form of hook or addiction challenge.”
Collin: “It's so common that in a sales organization, it's like, leave your personal stuff at home. When you're here, you need to focus, you need to hit your activities, you need to build your pipeline, you need to hit your quota.”
Tim: “It's one thing for two people in the US to speak openly about mental health. But when you start looking at cultures in Asia and India, it's like we don't speak about this.”
Tim: “It's never been about me or whoever's representing Uncrushed. We share our stories to create a space of vulnerability. Really when we create the events it's about holding space for other employees to share their stories. And it just normalizes it.”
Tim: “The whole point of Uncrushed is not from the point of view of someone who's already asked for help. It's before that. The whole point that we're trying to do is hopefully you'll connect with the story. You'll hear not only what they struggled but what they did to navigate those challenges and find the light.”
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Also, you can join our community by checking out @salescast.community. If you're a sales professional looking to take your career to greater heights, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a call with Collin and Chris.
[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell. And this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.
[00:00:24] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation. I'm very excited for today's guest. I have Tim Clark, who's the CEO and founder over at uncrushed. Tim has spent the last nine plus years at Salesforce currently leading trailblazer marketing for sales cloud. In addition to a seven plus years in marketing, he PR he previously spent seven years in sales.
[00:00:45] Tim was an enterprise. When he lost his dad suddenly in 2013, with all of the pressure of the day to day role combined with the sudden loss, he found himself spiraling downward with mental health challenges, including depression, grief, and addiction. He shares his journey openly and vulnerably. And we are going to dig into that today.
[00:01:07] Tim, thanks so much for coming on. Thanks Colin. Wow. It's like, I forgot. I put that in my buyer, which is going to get straight in the, uh, in the thick of it. Yeah. There was actually more in there, but I was like, we got to save some of the, uh, we got to save some of this for the, for the conversation. Cause I've got lots of questions.
[00:01:24] So, uh, appreciate you taking time right before the holiday to hop on here. Um, you know, I think this is a topic that is, uh, Great time to talk about this topic anytime of the year. So, um, let's just kind of kick it off here. Take us back a little bit. Where did your sales marketing journey sort of start?
[00:01:43] And then let's go with. Yeah, sure. So I, uh, I went to university and studied philosophy. I'm not sure what you do with a philosophy degree. Maybe you become a teacher. Uh, but it, it was something I was good at. And then I, uh, I fell into sales. Um, I worked for a company now owned by Vodafone in the telecom sector in England.
[00:02:04] Uh, I worked for Ricoh and the hardware and software space. Uh, and then in 2012, uh, joined Salesforce, uh, based in London, uh, as an enterprise E so I did about seven years of carrying a number of carrying a bag, uh, before moving over to the, uh, product marketing world in I think 2014. Um, okay. So you said you started at Salesforce in 2020?
[00:02:31] Yeah. Okay. You know, basically shortly after that is when, when you had the sudden loss of your dad. Yeah, sorry. I remember, uh, the month before I joined Salesforce, uh, August, 2012, I, uh, got to go on vacation with my dad, uh, took control Australia. Um, you know, we, we flew pretty near the front of the plane. I spent a lot of my commission on that and it's just, uh, a memory that are really close to me.
[00:03:03] Uh, cause I was the last trip that I took with him. Sorry. I saw him multiple times over the year ahead. Uh, all of a sudden in July, 2013, uh, it's finished work for the day and it was out with some friends and I got a cool saying that he'd, uh, that he had a stroke and was in the hospital. Um, and it's, it's so interesting.
[00:03:25] Like it's, it just turned everything upside down. I didn't really know how to handle that emotional process, that emotion. Uh, I, I grew up in a single parent family just with my dad. So he was. He was everything for me. And, um, I got to, he was in a coma when I, when I saw him on the Saturday. Uh, and I said my goodbyes to him and, um, and then he passed away a few days later after that.
[00:03:50] Wow. And this was just, you know, You know, lots new in a new role, you know, then to kind of be hit with this sounds like, you know, based on what I already know, that kind of puts you into a pretty, pretty dark place, right? Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, I go going back to the age of 11, I got bullied at school. I never fit in.
[00:04:17] And so my, my first coping mechanism was education, you know, just study as hard as I possibly could. Uh, same as when I started. Working career in 2007, it's just a must myself in work. Um, and I think, you know, a lot of, well, I'll just talk about my own experience. Like it was, you know, be seen, not heard, don't talk about your emotions.
[00:04:38] You have to be strong, don't cry. Um, and, and so a lot of my self worth was wrapped into my job and I just had to be as successful as possible and move all the way up. Um, it's just really a reflection point for me. In, uh, in 2013, because all of a sudden it's like, oh wow, maybe work isn't everything in my life.
[00:05:01] Like maybe there's an opportunity to reprioritize. And so I have massive respect for anyone in sales. Cause I think in the sales industry is one of the toughest industries that's out there. Um, and then you add on to that personal challenges, at least for me as I do, I really want someone. Kind of beating down on me, like, what's your number?
[00:05:21] What's your number? Are you going to close? Are you going to get this deal over the line? You know, when I'm dealing or not dealing with, uh, with personal issues. And so I ultimately, I tend to other coping mechanisms, you know, and I'm a firm believer that like drugs now call them. They're just the surface level things.
[00:05:39] My core issue is that I didn't know how to handle my emotions or process them healthy. And so, um, so yeah, there's a lot of other vices and, you know, I, I was never around that as a kid. And so it's, it's surprising to me looking back on it now, uh, that I found my, my way there. And, and that's because I I'm a firm believer like addiction doesn't discriminate, you know, it can, it can just come up in, in many forms, whether it's pills or drugs or alcohol sex, like.
[00:06:08] Social media work. Um, you know, um, I believe that everyone has some form of, um, of hook or addiction challenge. It's just, sometimes some of them are viewed as healthier in society. Yeah. And I think that to just kind of go back for a second, right. Is, is, is. It's so common that, you know, in a sales organization, it's like, oh, leave your personal stuff at home.
[00:06:36] Right? You gotta, when you're here, you need to be focused. You need to hit your activities. You need to build your pipeline. You need to hit your quota. And I mean, I remember early on being, being told that like, whatever your personal. Whenever your personal garbage is like, when you walk in the door, like leave that at home.
[00:06:53] Right. Cause you need to be in a, you know, you need to be in your suit of armor, like ready to, you know, kick some ass and take some names when you're in this sales role. And unfortunately, that's, there's still a lot of environments that are very much like. Yeah, I, cause I think there's a lack of training, you know, whether it's an organizational level at manager level, uh, I interested in your opinion on this one, like there's this growing trend on LinkedIn right now of like LinkedIn's becoming Facebook.
[00:07:23] Uh, you know, and my view personally, is that why I think people are just being more. And they're just bringing their full selves to work and, you know, work and personal is, is so intertwined, particularly over the last couple of years. Yeah. I don't see people complain about it as much anymore. Occasionally I do it I'd say maybe, I don't know, a year or two ago there was more people like, you know, this doesn't belong here or when did this become Facebook or this is business, not per, like when did business become personal?
[00:07:55] What, like they don't need to be treated as these two separate things. Like, you know, we're all just human beings. And like, if you don't like who I am or what I stand for, or all of me, then we're probably not going to work together anyway. So I'd rather find out early. Yeah. And, and like, we're seeing right now with the grit resignation, like so many people are leaving their jobs and soon as part of the interview process, they want to work for.
[00:08:21] And manager that's gonna, uh, in general, these are generalizations a manager that's willing to speak openly about mental health, uh, or at least to be vulnerable and authentic. They want to work for a company that, that prioritizes wellness. Um, and I think sometimes like, there's almost a stigma associated with the word mental health.
[00:08:40] Like if you want to take care of your mental health, that must mean you have mental illness, which is not, it's not the case, you know, Ultimately, um, people are trying to be healthy, whether it's physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. Um, and you know, now over the last few years in particular, we've just seen people speak more openly about mental health.
[00:09:03] I mean, What a ridiculous assumption, right? Just because you do things to take care of your mental health means you have a mental problem, you know, it's like, that's like saying, oh, you know, you go to the gym, so you must have a health problem. Right. Like, it's that, it's that ridiculous. And, and so I, I agree.
[00:09:26] And I think that, you know, um, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done in order for organizations. Get more comfortable talking about this stuff or creating a safe place for people to be able to, you know, be vulnerable. I think, you know, I think a lot of sellers are just kind of like scared to speak up because they're like, oh, if I say I have this, or if I tell them what's really go on going on, it's, you know, it's going to put their job at risk or, you know, maybe they're not going to get assigned certain accounts or they're going to get, you know, treated, um, different.
[00:10:00] Yeah, and it's very real, you know, with some of the work we do at on crushed. Uh, people share their personal experiences around mental illness or mental health. We want those people to say, Hey, if you put it on this out there, like there, there is a risk of discrimination and you know, both myself and another great guy who I love Jeff Risely of the sales health Alliance.
[00:10:21] Uh, you know, w we've both seen this even on LinkedIn, like, you shouldn't talk about this, or if someone asks for a mental health day, I would fire them, you know, and just putting the legalities to one side, like how. How sad that that is happens. But I think it, it takes trailblazers to, to make a change, you know, just as we have many other areas of inequality, it takes trailblazers to speak openly about their experiences and, and to come forward.
[00:10:48] Um, but definitely even I had those, um, Biases before, you know, if someone took a leave of absence, you know, to go on disability and work on their mental health, why, why should that be regarded any different than someone dealing with a, with a physical health challenge? And, and I think the only way we change that is by normalizing.
[00:11:09] Like how great that if someone is experiencing burnout and they take some time off to work on themselves. So if someone is struggling with something like addiction and they get to work on themselves, amazing. I know for me with my journey, like I've taken time off. I'm one of the strongest people I know.
[00:11:25] And I say that with no ego, but it's because I've been lucky enough to be given time to work on myself. Uh, and, and to recognize how I can handle things. And I mean, it's. The th the thing that I think a lot of people don't realize, and it's something I had to realize kind of early on in my own sales career is, is that you want to be better in your job and your role hit, you know, hitting your goals, crushing your quota, whatever you want to call it.
[00:11:55] Like you need to do more work on yourself, not sharpening your hard skills in your role, but you need to take better care of yourself mentally, spiritually, emotionally, physically, like you name it, taking time off, um, creating habit. Like the more that you time that you can dedicate to taking care of yourself personally, the more you will Excel professionally.
[00:12:19] Yeah. And you know, the couple of things you mentioned there. So first of all, just focusing on the word crushed and when we created on crushed, um, we, we really wrapped that in, you know, how many times are you told to crush it, but really you're getting crushed yourself. And so how do you become uncrushed?
[00:12:37] Um, and, and you're absolutely right. Like, there is a responsibility on the indigenous. Um, but there's also responsibility on the manager as well. And I think traditionally companies and managers have gone well, I can't talk about that. It's an HR issue. Um, but there are other strategies. Like one thing that I love is just implementing a traffic light system, like maybe starting a meeting and the manager says, Hey, I'm feeling Amber right now for this reason.
[00:13:04] So leading with vulnerability that then creates an environment of vulnerability and courage. For the employee then to say, well, I'm feeding bread right now, or I'm feeding green because of, because of this reason. But I think I missed the manager leads and says, uh, how they're feeling. You're unlikely to get a response.
[00:13:23] It's like, if I say to you, Hey, how are you? And you go, I'm fine. And then it's like, you've got to ask how someone is twice and really get below that stuff. Oh, you got to, you got to ask a little bit more of an obvious question, right. Um, and, and you read between the lines, right? Like if you say, Hey, Tim, how are you doing?
[00:13:41] You're like, oh, I'm great. You know, that's different than, um, you know, I'm good. You know, that's two very different responses. Uh, it's interesting. Cause even, uh, I have three little ones and you know, I have one in first grade and one in kindergarten and they even are starting, you know, now at that level, Teach them emotional intelligence a little bit, and, you know, have them kind of check in with how they're feeling each day, which is, you know, they, they they're, I never had that when I was a kid, you know, but like, these are the things that I think, you know, a lot of people, either my age or older, you know, didn't get that sort of education or that sort of level of awareness, um, that like it's okay to talk about how you feeling about.
[00:14:26] That there's nothing wrong with that doesn't mean you're weak. It doesn't mean you're less than doesn't mean you're different. Um, which is, you know, kind of from, you know, you sharing a little bit about your story is kind of, that's how you grew up. And I think many, you know, grew up similar way. Yeah. And I think also then you start to look at, uh, you know, like men in general are meant to be strong.
[00:14:48] Um, and then you start to look at, um, different ethnicities and races, um, you know, various significantly, like, I think it's one thing for two people in the U S to speak openly about mental health. But when you start looking at, uh, cultures in Asia and India, um, it it's like we don't speak about. You know, and, and so I've been fascinated by so many people that have contributed to an crush that if shared the stigma of on crush in that cultures, um, and it there's, there's multiple levels of stigma associated with speaking about this.
[00:15:23] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's even like a little bit harder for, for men to, to, to be open to talking about these types of things. Yeah. And then if a woman speaks about it, that. And so like, um, on either end of the spectrum, like no one can win here. And so I feel like the opportunity is, is like, how do we just hold space?
[00:15:46] And, and also the amount of times when we, when we, we need to work on our listening skills and it's not just listening to respond, but actually holding space for people. And so some of the. Events that we've done on crush with different tech companies we've gone in. It's never been about me or whoever's representing on crushing.
[00:16:06] You know, we, we share our stories to create a space of vulnerability, but really when we create the advantage, it's about holding space for other employees to share their story. Um, and it just normalizes it, you know, and, and this is something I try and do in my work every day as well, is, is I check in with other people on the team, not just like, Hey, where we're at with this project, or what's the latest on, on this, but actually going, how are you doing today?
[00:16:32] And, and not just again, not surface level, but actually listening, uh, and, and holding space and, and not just being like, oh yeah, well, I also went through this and I did this, you know, I'm trying not to minimize what someone else is going through and just truly being authentic and listening to. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:51] And it, and I think, you know, for people that are maybe listening to this and they're like, oh man, maybe I'm gonna, you know, try to create that space. You know? Um, it's going to be uncomfortable at first. Like, yeah, it's going to be, it's going to feel a little unnatural, probably it's going to feel uncomfortable.
[00:17:09] Um, but you just got to do it anyway and just, you know, see, see what happens, right? Like, I mean, how. Bad. Is it that, like, if you actually genuinely asked, you know, somebody on your team, you know, how they were doing, like, you were not about how, where are we at with this project? They probably be shocked.
[00:17:27] Like what, what do you mean? Right. They would be, they would be taken back. Uh, they would think it's some sort of trick or like, why, why are you asking me that? Because it's so against everything, that's kind of the way it's been for. Yeah. And I think there's a responsibility of people that are in leadership positions or have more years of experience to, to hold these conversations.
[00:17:52] Like, I, I recognize you. And if there's anyone that's maybe only got a few years under the belt or perhaps you're, you know, you're a junior BDR or an eight. Like, he may not want to speak openly about this and that's totally okay. You know, the takeaway from this conversation is not that you have to share everything with everyone, but I would say if you're a leader listening to this, like just start to share openly and it doesn't have to be like, oh, I, I struggled with this in terms of addiction, but it could be like, all right.
[00:18:17] Yeah. Experiencing some anxiety or a recognize right now, like a lot of people are facing burnout because of X, Y, and Z. And these are some of the things that I've been doing to, to help out with that. And not every conversation has to be, to be public. Now, one of our other co-founders Janell, she, she talks about this concept of building your personal board of directors.
[00:18:37] And so just like build five people, a community of five people that you trust. Um, and so that there'll be some people at work that I speak to about some things. Some people that I speak to in therapy or with the doctor, or just some close friends that I speak to about other things, you know, you don't have to share everything with everyone.
[00:18:57] Yeah, that's a, that's such a great point. You know, find some people that you trust, maybe just some peers and that's a good place to start with, you know, cause it's even uncomfortable. I think for people to start sharing things, it's uncomfortable for leaders to start creating space for this type of thing.
[00:19:14] Um, but I think it can start at the top end at the bottom or whatever you, however you want to look at it both ends, um, uh, of making it more. Yeah. So, yeah, so, so talk me through a little bit, you know, 2003. Let's go back for a second. We've talked about a lot here, but 2013 after your dad, you know, suddenly passed away, you know, that kind of puts you in a really dark spot.
[00:19:38] Um, what did coming out of the other end of that look like? And then when did you know uncrushed become a thing? Yeah. It's. I think like many tech companies and probably just on myself as an individual, like there's a, there's a culture like working hard and playing hard. Uh, and you know, I kind of took that to access, uh, you know, uh, thankfully for me, like I was still extremely functional and my career still continued to go up.
[00:20:09] You know, I was able to keep it hidden for a long time. Uh, and then I hit the point in 2017 where I was like, I don't want my life to be this way anymore. Like if. Achieved this whilst doing this, imagine what I could do if I didn't have these substances. And I was in a much healthier position, um, physically and mentally.
[00:20:30] And so, so I took a break from work and I, I got some help. Uh, but I remember in that moment in 2017, like I, I felt like I was the only person in the world that has had this problem, uh, at least at worked at Salesforce or in the tech industry. Um, and sorry. I raised this flag to someone else. Like why, why don't people speak about this in the workplace?
[00:20:52] Uh, and obviously, you know, this there's clear reasons of why he wouldn't speak about this in the workplace. Um, but now, like I I'm jumping around a little bit, but then in 20. What year are we in 2021 and 2020, uh, at Salesforce had created an employee resource group called soba force, uh, which is for sober and sober, curious employees and their allies to, to speak about, um, uh, sobriety in the workplace.
[00:21:21] And again, think of the word, just like we talked about mental health and mental health. When I say the word sober, the first thing that comes to someone mind is addiction. That someone might just choose not to have alcohol for health reasons or religious reasons. Like you could be sober for whichever reason.
[00:21:36] And so I think so before it has really been an evolution from some of the stuff that I did with on crushed. So we winding a little. When I had reached a good place in my own recovery in 2018, I reached out to a few friends who also experienced, uh, different types of challenges, but all under the spectrum of, of mental health.
[00:21:56] And we said, Hey, we want to create a community and a platform for people to share their personal experiences. Let's so maybe someone will listen to this and they'll be able to relate to my story. Um, and there'll be many people that have. Be able to relate to my stories and that's fine. Cause we have over 150 people that have shed that stories on crushed.
[00:22:14] Um, And so whether it's through, uh, video, audio written articles, uh, through events, uh, through doing research, we know we partnered with, uh, Jeff Rice in the herself health Alliance and Richard Harris in, uh, earlier this year, uh, to do a state of mental health in the sales industry, where we surveyed 800 people, uh, under the correlation between sales performance and mental health.
[00:22:39] Um, so there's really been an evolution. We have a fantastic team of volunteers. And so I would say. You know, now as we record this at the end of 2021, um, you know, I look at I'm crushed. I look at, so before us, we've had many companies reach out to us, want to set up similar programs and that's because they, they want to, they want to hold space for this.
[00:23:01] They recognize again, like the way to retain employees. The way to, um, attract employees is to have a specific agenda around mental. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So just to kind of go back there, the timeline, right? 2013, you know, two, 2017 kind of rough patch, right. And then worked on yourself for, you know, 2018 sober fests or sober force over at Salesforce.
[00:23:32] Um, Kind of helped kick around some ideas of, of, of some things that you could be doing. Um, and then it sounds like lots of people have been raising their hand and saying, Hey, we want to support this and be a part of what you guys are doing. Yeah. And, and on that period between 2013 and 2017, like I struggled with, but no one, no one would have ever seen that, you know, on the face of it.
[00:23:56] If you look at my LinkedIn, like I got promotion, so it was hitting my number and sales, then, you know, hitting my KPIs in mark. They gave me a relocation package over to San Francisco. So again, it's this concept of, of wearing a mask, uh, metaphorically, because on the face of it, people could just see.
[00:24:14] Someone that had their shit together. And, you know, it was doing all these keynotes and interviews and flying around. It was like amazing, but it, but it was only when I took that mask off and revealed like, actually I'm struggling, you know? And there was an opportunity for, for a better life. So, so yeah, between 20 17, 18 started to take that mask off.
[00:24:34] Then we created on crushed in 2018 and then it evolved to the creation of sober force. And at the end of 2010, Wow. Wow. All right. So tell us now a little bit about people that are curious. Like, if I want to, you know, if I'm somebody who needs some help, how does an crush support me? If I'm somebody who wants to get involved, you know, it's kind of.
[00:24:58] Yeah. So two of the stats, sorry. I was talking about mental health. America pre pandemic says one in five people in the U S experiencing some form of mental illness, uh, at any point in time of those one in five, which I'm guessing that with COVID is probably five and five, uh, of those, you know, 60% of them aren't reaching out for professional help.
[00:25:19] And so our whole goal of on crushed is not from the point that someone's reached out for help. It's it's it's before the. The whole point of what we're trying to do is, is hopefully you'll connect with. You'll hear not only where they struggled, but what they did to, to navigate those challenges and, and find the light, uh, in the hope that you will then reach out for help.
[00:25:39] So we, we try and connect people with peer to peer support or professional support, and we have a good arm cross.org forward slash resources. And there's a ton of information, you know, depending on what you're, you're struggling with. Uh, we, we don't take any money from any for-profit businesses. You know, there's, there's many out there.
[00:25:58] Uh, and, and so we, we don't provide any specific recommendations. Um, we're specifically focused on probably on the point that I was in, in 2017. And like, how do I recognize that I have a problem? How do I recognize that there is a solution? And then what did the solutions look like? And, you know, for me in 2017, uh it's because someone told me this.
[00:26:21] You know, and they shared with me what their challenge was, what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. Um, and that's really what we try and try and do then crushed. And so if there's anyone that's, you're interested in volunteering all of this on the website on crushed the org, but we, you know, we have opportunities to volunteer.
[00:26:39] The other thing I have shares. If you want to share your story, you know, maybe this is inspired you to share your story. You can go to on crush.org. Ford says submissions, uh, and there's a ton of detail on, on how we get your story out there. Um, and then also if you want to run an event, there's, there's details on how you can run a, an event with crushed as well.
[00:26:58] Wow. And what about for like companies that, you know, want support to create programs? Are you guys do anything. Yeah. So, uh, on our events page, we give some details and some of the events that from previously, you know, somewhere in person and obviously with the pandemic, we've done everything virtually. Um, so yeah, there's, there's detailed.
[00:27:21] Incredible. Um, thanks so much for coming on Tim. I really appreciate it. Really appreciate you sharing part of your story and in the work that you're doing there at uncrushed, uh, if people what's the best place for people to get into your world, other than. You know, the uncrushed website, which we'll include in the show notes or anything else, any other final thoughts?
[00:27:42] Yeah. I'd love to connect with people on LinkedIn, you know, and, and one thing I've found is with the, some of the stuff I share, sometimes people want to comment publicly. There's also a lot of people that will just send me messages in private. So whatever your comfort level is, you know, and, and again, if you don't connect with me, We've got an amazing board of directors, um, you know, with, with James Barkley, with Richard Harris, Janell Cronk, Lindsey Boggs, Nikki IVs, Sean, Kara Gucci, uh, you know, so find someone that you do connect with and the majority of those people that have shared their stories on, on crush.
[00:28:14] Um, so there's any takeaways from this. I would say. Yeah, please just try and someone that you trust with friends, someone that you connect with. And, you know, one thing that one of my favorite researchers is Johan Harry and he has this great Ted talk called everything, you know about addiction is wrong.
[00:28:32] And he says, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. I blank. The, uh, the opposite of addiction is connection. And, you know, again, addiction strongly. But just, just focus on like health equals connection. And so, you know, just like you're doing with your podcast community, just like we've seen with so many sales communities, people want to connect with each other.
[00:28:56] It's just such human need. It's a find someone you trust find somebody you can connect with them and they'll go through this. Thanks so much, Tim. I really appreciate it. We'll drop your LinkedIn. We'll drop the on crush website there in the show notes for everybody. If you enjoyed today's episode, please write us a review, share the show with your friends.
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