Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Dec. 8, 2021

#209 S2 Episode 78 - Using Transparency to Loose Fast & Win More Deals with Todd Caponi

This episode of the Sales Transformation Podcast with Collin Mitchell features Todd Caponi. Todd talks about applying behavioral science to sales, and the importance of understanding your customers. With his personal experience and the science to back him up, Todd demonstrates the efficacy of building a foundation of trust through transparency with clients and customers is the best way to do sales, especially in the long term.
Todd's views about honesty and transparency in sales are a breath of fresh air and have the potential to change how both sales professionals and customers look at the sales profession in general.


02:21 Todd's early career and experience 

06:44 Behavioral Science in Sales: How does it apply?

12:21 Transparency as a revolutionary sales tactic 

18:13 Hot tip: Build a foundation of trust early on with your clients

23:58 Always set a price in the beginning

28:05 Connect with Todd


09:07 Todd: "Why as human beings, do we want to go to the negative first? And why does that actually aid in our decision-making process? And it turns out all of that applies to human, to human or B2B — that our brains, we are wired subconsciously to know that perfection can't possibly be reality."

16:10 Todd: "Disarm your competitors, win faster, lose faster and speed your sales cycles because you're helping the buyer predict a lot faster.

19:24 Collin: "You need to know your strengths and your weaknesses as a company extremely well. And you need to know your competitors extremely well."

24:19 Todd: "I believe that if we're talking about a six figure-solution to a four figure-buyer, one of us is in the wrong. And vice versa."

26:44 Collin: "Your reputation as a seller matters. you want to make a good impression in all scenarios, regardless of the outcome."

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#209 S2 Episode 78 - Todd Caponi

[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell. And this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.

[00:00:24] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation. I'm super fired up to have Todd Caponey on today. Talk pony is an author and three of three best book, award winning and international bestseller. The transparency, sales, and speaker, and workshop leader as principal of sales. Melon, Todd, welcome to the show.

[00:00:45] Thanks for having me, brother. Yeah, this is exciting. I know we're going to talk about some things that we don't get to talk about as often. So I'm excited about that. Um, but I'd love to just kind of go back a little bit and just tell me, like, when did you get into sales? What were you doing? And just kind of give us the short version of like your sell story.

[00:01:02] Well, yeah, I mean, my, my dad. Kind of the consummate sales person forever. He passed away a couple of years ago at the age of 98, so amazing life of always sales. Um, and I, I always felt like he did it the right way. Well, when I went to college, like sales is the last thing on my mind. I was thinking I want to be in marketing and advertising or whatever, but then I got a job in college.

[00:01:27] I went to Indiana university and I sold newspaper ads for the Indiana daily student newspaper. And I found that like, this is kind of cool. And I think I'm pretty decent at it. And so like, that's where it started. And then when you come out of college, And you're up against like hundreds of people going for the same entry level sales jobs, but you've got experience from college that you can actually like, here's the lessons I learned.

[00:01:51] Here's what I sucked at. Here's what I'm great at. I, I was like getting offers everywhere. It was, it, it was just a great way to get into it and yeah, from there, it was just a lot of sales and selling. Uh, you know, I guess as we go a little bit further, um, I think it turns out. I kind of consider myself a, B, B plus sales rep.

[00:02:13] Right? Like, I wasn't the greatest, but I've always been a nerd for the behavioral science of like, how, how do people like how their brains work? And then I found out I could apply that. And so, uh, my initial inclination was, I want to get into sales leadership, but like, how do I do that? And at the time when I was really, I thought.

[00:02:37] Th no one is going to take a person that has no experience that just this guy that's like this B-plus sales rep. And so I ended up in the early two thousands. I quit my job, sold everything I had and I bought a sales training company like Aluna tech. And I did that for three years. Kind of sucked at it.

[00:02:54] I think year one revenue was like 12 K. Um, but when that was over, one of the people that I'd worked with earlier, was it an executive at a tech company? It was just like, Todd, come work for me, help me build the infrastructure, the processes, you know, it, you've worked with a hundred different companies.

[00:03:13] And so I went in there and that was kind of the start of my entry into what's now. And I've been a leader with, I guess, seven times sales leader with four different companies in different roles, but then now I wrote the book and here I am. Wow. Okay. So. Yeah. I'm not mad at being a B plus seller, right.

[00:03:36] Because, um, if you were a plus seller, you probably would have got the leadership role, even though you probably weren't, you know, a lot of top producers A-plus sellers get that leadership role. It's not the best move. Right? Um, sometimes number, I mean, I know probably a lot of your listeners are, are younger, but you know, after September 11th, 2001, they, the, the kind of the tech bubble.

[00:04:00] And then all of a sudden, there's this glut of mid-level sales managers that are looking for jobs. And that was when I was like, eh, I don't want to just take another sales job. I want to go do something cool. But I'm up against all these people that had experienced. And I had none. And so I felt like I had to change the game and take the risk.

[00:04:18] And the worst case would be, I suck at it and I ended up going back, but I've got so much more experience. Best case was the sales training thing would work out for us. Ironically, that's what I do now. But, um, you know, at the time it just made me so much more, I don't know. I was able to see how companies ran, what they did.

[00:04:37] Well, what they didn't and me being the nerd that I am around all of this behavioral science stuff, I think made me better at it so that when I did get the opportunity, I moved up really quickly. Yeah. Yeah. What a, what a risky move though, right? Well, yeah, I'm kind of a lunatic in that way, but I just always felt like, again, like worst case.

[00:04:58] I run out of money, but I'm better for my next job. Right. And like, it should pay it. So I always felt like doing that. So some of the risks that you take, people were like, Hey, you're going to go get your MBA. And I was like, I don't really want to go back to school. I felt like this risk that I took probably cost me as much as an MBA.

[00:05:17] And I probably got a broader education around the real sales world doing that versus what I would have gotten going back to class. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, being willing to bet on yourself and put like the experience ahead of like some monetary thing right. Is, is, is really, can be really beneficial. Right. And it seems like it worked out for you.

[00:05:44] So being willing to take those risks, maybe being a little bit of a lunatic, like you said, um, CA can work out, can work out, you know, Yeah. Yeah. When you're expensive. I mean, I started my first company with my wife, uh, when I was, uh, 24 and, you know, we lived in a one bedroom apartment and our expenses were low, so we could take that sort of risk, you know, um, now, you know, if I was in a job and it'd be a little more difficult, you know, I've got three kids in a fourth on the way in the mortgage.

[00:06:17] A little bit harder to be alone the kit tick and take that risk. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So I really want to dig into something you've brought up a couple of times and you, we were talking about it before is, is you really love to geek out on this behavioral science stuff around sales. And, uh, and, and, and so let's, let's what does that mean?

[00:06:39] And let's just nerd out on some of that stuff for a minute. Well, yeah. Why don't I, um, so I'll start with a story. Um, in my last. So from 2014 to 2018, I was the chief revenue officer of a company in Chicago called power reviews. Now you can probably guess from the name reviews that we were in the review space, we helped retailers and brands collect and display ratings and reviews on their website.

[00:07:01] Right? So buying a pair of Crocs, look at the shoe. You scroll down there's reviews. We were the engine behind the collect and display of that. Now what happens. Was, we did a research study and we were doing it with like a thousand other companies too. Right. But we did a research study with Northwestern university.

[00:07:18] I'm in Chicago with them that looked at alright, how do consumers make decisions? When a website is acting as a salesperson and we get the data back and it literally changed my life, like only could happen to a nerd, right? That there was three data points. Two of which blew my mind. And I was like, all right, that's sort of websites acting as a salesperson.

[00:07:41] What happens in human to human or B2B? And the three data points? The first one was no surprise, right? It was that at the time 96% of us will read reviews before we make a purchase of medium to high consideration that we'd never bought before. Right then I, I was, I, I never found the 4%, but Dell, like, we all do it.

[00:08:03] The data points though, that Bloomberg. Number one 85% of us skip the five-star reviews and go right to the negatives. Right? So we read the fours, threes, twos, and ones first. And then the other one was this idea that on a five-star scale, a product that has an average review score between a four, two and a four or five is optimal for purchase conversion, meaning a product that has negative reviews right under it.

[00:08:29] I bought this product. I hated it actually helps products. Right. Like Amazon company, you may have heard of, they're doing pretty well. Back in 1995, they were the ones that pioneered this idea of, Hey, let's let people buy the products and then come back and tell us whether they liked what they liked, what they didn't and it helped them sell.

[00:08:47] It helped them accelerate. So I thought, all right, why does that happen? Why as human beings, do we want to go to the negative first? And why does that actually aid in our decision-making process? And it turns out all of that applies to human, to human or B2B. That our brains, we are wired subconsciously to know that perfection can't possibly be reality.

[00:09:11] And like, as a sales leader, I was teaching my reps to basically present our stuff as being perfect. Right. And let them find out on their own. But what triggers a decision in the buying brain is when our brains can predict what our experience is going to be like. And if all we're hearing is positives, we're actually driving buyers to go do homework on this.

[00:09:30] And due to the proliferation of reviews and feedback on everything we do by an experience, you got to go, like, you got to embrace this idea right now, control that dialogue. And so we started trying it at power reviews where we would lead with, Hey, like based on your environment. Um, here's the things we're really good at, but here's a couple of things that be like, aren't as good.

[00:09:54] Here's something a competitor does better than us. Here's an area of potentially of risk based on your product yet. When did we lead with that? It disarmed the buying brain. It sped our sales cycles because buyers were able to predict faster and they were doing less homework on their own. But even more importantly, our win rates went way up because we're working the deals we should be working.

[00:10:16] And we were losing the deals. We were going to lose anyway, but faster. Right. But like the first time I had tried, it was with a big apparel retailer up in New York. I got thrown into an environment that I didn't know I was going to be presenting them. Um, they handed me the HTMI and they're like, plug your laptop in here.

[00:10:35] And I'm like, what? And then the guy started the conversation by saying, Hey, we're looking at your competitor. We're looking at you. How are you better? And I was like, thinking about all this behavioral science research, I'm like, I'm going to try it. And so I started by just thinking, Hey, before we get too deep, our competitor that you're looking.

[00:10:55] They just released an add-on that not only do we not have, but we haven't even thought about it. Not even on a roadmap, if that's going to be an important consideration, can we vet that now? Cause like you got a team here that's going to issue an RFP. You're like, we're going to have to fly everybody around to do the dog and pony show.

[00:11:11] And it would save us all a lot of time. And they're like, what is it? And I literally went into selling that add-on as though I was the competitor. And again, if I'm going to lose, I want to lose fast. I want to control that message. Right. And what ended up happening is something like that. The thing that triggered me to quit my job and write a book was within 15 minutes, the head of e-commerce had said, Hey, listen, that's not that wasn't even something we were considering.

[00:11:42] Um, we'll have to vet it a little bit, but for right now, it's a no, like we're not interested in that ad on it. Within 15 minutes. He kicked everybody out of his office and showed me his actual budget. Right? Like I'd never had a buyer go, Hey, can you hit that number? And I was like, wait a second. I think I'm onto something here.

[00:12:01] And we rolled that out a little bit more broadly. And we became Chicago's fastest growing tech company from 2014 to 2017. And I think that that played a big role. We were, I mean, our role as salespeople is to sharper the buyer through the best decision. Whether it's with us or without us. And that's where the magic really started.

[00:12:21] It started with transparency and it's kind of blossomed into other pieces around. That's a, that's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of sellers. Like what you mean? You want me to help them make their buying decision, even if we're not the best decision. That sounds crazy. Now you sound like a lunatic.

[00:12:40] Exactly what I'm telling you. Like one of the things that I used to do wrong as a sales leader, I used to like monitor to, Hey, listen, at all times, you've got to have four X your quota in pipeline. Right. And like, we would look at that and go, oh, you're down. And so what that would do is the reps, would them fill their pipeline with four X, their quota filled with crap.

[00:13:03] Right. I think that we all need to step back and go, Hey listen, can we do a better job of vetting pipeline and qualify inner outfit? So that maybe we only need two X, our quota and pipeline to hit our numbers. And we ended up spending more of our time on opportunities. We should win or finding opportunities we should win, which means that the whole pie is going to get a lot bigger.

[00:13:27] And that's, that was the concept of this is. One other thing that I kind of joked about, or maybe I didn't joke about before we got started is I'm a massive sales history nerd too. Like I've got a podcast called the sales history podcast. Cause like my weekends are spent reading old sales books from the early 19 hundreds.

[00:13:47] There's a quote from an author. His name is Arthur Dunn. The year was 1919. The quote is awesome. Like it's my favorite quote of all time as it relates to sales, it is if the truth won't sell it, don't sell. And like that one always stuck with me and I'm like, Hey, if we just own that mantra, we're going to be working the opportunities we should be working and being a lot more efficient instead of the four X a quota of pipeline measure.

[00:14:14] If I was in that position right now, I would be looking at how long does it take us to lose the deals we lose. Right. And if that's extended, maybe we're not really embracing and helping the customer predict. Right. I think there's a huge opportunity. Right. Well, you said it earlier, right? If you're going to lose, lose fast.

[00:14:32] Right? So tell him the thing. That you naturally don't want to tell them, or you think that you'd normally try to hide, right? Like the negative reviews at the bottom. Right? Give them all that information upfront. Because I think in that story that you explained, right. In that situation, uh, by giving them that information, you built a level of trust and rapport through that transparency that was shockingly odd to those, to the, to that buying committee.

[00:15:00] And what make it even more funny is two weeks ago. They decided to not do the RFP and they made the decision for us, but that head of e-commerce called me. So I'm in my office, I'm in a meeting I see on the caller ID of the company name. And I'm like, oh, I want to get this one. I answer it's him. And he called the telling me, Hey, listen, we're going to accelerate this.

[00:15:17] We just felt more comfortable with you and your company. It's a better fit. We decided not to do the RFP. You don't have to fly up. Um, and so congrats. And I was like, oh cool. But like, why didn't you call me? Like, that's awesome that you called me, but, and he was like, oh, I just had to tell you this story, the competitor, I called them and told them that we were going to go with you.

[00:15:38] They immediately went into a hard pitch for their new ad-on. And I told them that I already knew about it, that the CRO of power reviews had already explained it to me. And it's not something that we're really carrying. And I was like, ah, so it like, just like in the end of the movie, eight mile where M and M is in the rap battle and he disarms his competitor by basically rapping all about the things that that guy could rip on him about and left him with nothing left to say, that's one of the other values of this too.

[00:16:07] It's you disarm your competitors, win faster, lose faster and speed your sales cycles because you're helping the buyer predict a lot of. Wow. That's, that's an interesting piece there because basically by disarming your, your competitor and leading with that information, w with you leading them with that information that doesn't even make you look.

[00:16:30] Potentially the best option, right? If that's something that's important to him and then leading with that is, this is why we are the best option, uh, works so well together, um, in, in your favor. So I love that that add on would have been really important. Would I rather know. But what I'd rather know in three months after we'd spent all that time and money on RFPs and flying, would I rather control that message or I'd rather that message come from my competitor like that those are the two questions that just made it seem like, huh?

[00:16:59] This is something that we could really embrace in our messaging, our positioning. And it goes all the way out to presenting negotiating, you know, post-sale experience interviews interviewing, like you could take this transparency concept to pretty much every. And I think there's a huge opportunity to really not only change the game, but you gotta do it because of that proliferation of reviews and feedback on everything anyway.

[00:17:25] Um, and like the customer's going to find out anyway. So why not own it instead of leaving the randomness to them and erode trust in the process. Right. Build trust. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and so, uh, And that's, that's the key there, right. Is, is, is it's going to not only help you win more deals, but it's going to help you get rid of the deals that you would have wasted a ton of time on.

[00:17:50] Right. Because that's why other deals that, I mean, there's, it's opportunity cost, right? If you're spending. Time on deals where you didn't lead with that level of transparency, you're spinning your wheels, wasting time, wasting money, focusing on those when there's other ones that you could have closed, that you potentially risk losing because you weren't giving them enough attention.

[00:18:12] And what ends up happening also is when you do that, you build trust. The thing I say a lot is with every interaction you're either building. Or eroding it. It's never staying the same. And if you start with, you know, we, we, we, this is how awesome we are. Did I mention how awesome we are? Like, you're not starting at a really good position.

[00:18:32] You can start with that trust built. And then when something inevitably goes wrong, uh, you've got more roads. And the end result is not only these customers that buy faster, buy more often, but they stay low. And they're more likely to become advocates on your behalf. That client, there was another one. Um, it was a company that made, um, made chili, right?

[00:18:53] Like chili and cans. Right. And he had called me for some reason and it was just like, Hey, I'm looking at you. I'm looking at them. And so I started with that same thing. That guy became one of our company's biggest advocates. I swear. Foundation of trust and transparency that not only lasts for your initial deals, but it has such long lasting ramifications in the relationship that you have with your customers.

[00:19:18] Yeah. And so, and there's a couple of key things that you need to know in elbow to sell this way. Right. You need to know. Your strengths and your weaknesses as a company extremely well. And you need to know your competitors extremely well. Right? Well, yeah, I mean, back in 2017 Gartner, it was the corporate executive board back then, but Gardner had done a study that looked at consensus buyers.

[00:19:44] So you got a group of consensus, buyers, word. They spending their time. It turns out that only 39% of their buyers. And, you know, trying to evaluate your solution and competitor is spent either talking to you, talking to your competitors or talking to their internal buying group. 61% of their time is spent doing homework outside of what they get from you.

[00:20:06] And that 61% is talking to peers, references, analysts, reports, the review sites, doing all of that. That's 61% is not a foregone conclusion when you lead with transparency and they start to do their homework and find that it matches up immediately, our brains trigger that, Hey, I can trust with this person saying it matches up.

[00:20:26] I don't need to do more homework. So the homework for everybody else, like you said, Colin is not only, you got to know your strengths, your weaknesses, all of that. Go do the homework like a buyer would do like go to gamble when you're done listening to this and go, what is it like to work with my company?

[00:20:43] And it's not just the review sites. There's also the glass doors. The Indeeds the employee sites that have reviews, snippets. Your buyers are looking at that too, because they're not just buying your product solutions, technology services. They're buying you. If they'd see on Glassdoor, you get like a 2.5 and everybody hates it there.

[00:21:00] That's going to influence it. Oh, no, they're going to do that homework and do the homework for them. Be the Sherpa through their buying process. And I'm telling you that, that the results, like they were so magical to me. I was like, I got to get these ideas out there. I wrote the book. I thought there was a 50 50 shot.

[00:21:18] It would suck because I'd never written a book before. And I was going to go do the book launch, and then maybe do a little speaking and teaching and then go find a CRO job again. But the. Has taken off it's it's selling, it's sold more in 2021 that did 2018. So it keeps going up. It's making an impact.

[00:21:36] And I, I just, the other piece of this is as a sales history nerd, back in the early 19 hundreds, sales was actually a trusted and respected profession. Fast forward to the 2000 tens, 2010. You look at Gallup's annual list of trusted professions and it's like nurses and veterinarians and at the bottom it's salespeople members of Congress and senators like that's the, that's the group I want to be hanging out.

[00:22:04] I just think there's an opportunity to not only improve all of the results that matter to you, but I think we have an opportunity to make the professional more respected and admired place to be again. And I think that impacts all of us. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it's interesting because, um, when you sell this way, it's almost shocking to the buyer.

[00:22:27] Like it stands out in such a huge way because it's not the norm. Like it's totally opposite of what all or most of your competitors are doing. And I mean, the world has changed. It's amazing, you know, that quote that Arthur Dunn quote, if the truth won't sell it, don't sell it. There was 102 years ago.

[00:22:47] We've always known that honesty and authenticity help you sell, but we now have to do it like, but the last 10 years has changed to the point where yeah, it feels good. To be honest, I feel good being honest. Of course you do, but now we have to do it and it makes a real impact. Like you're not only get the opportunity to feel good about your selling pursuits, but it impacts your results in.

[00:23:13] Markedly positive way when you do it like this, like the greatest win-win of all time. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a good exercise is kind of what you mentioned, right. Is go do the homework on your company as if you're a buyer and do the same on your competitors. And that is a good way to know where there may be stronger than you, where there may be weaker than you, where you're strong, where your weak points are.

[00:23:34] And just get out in front of that in the very beginning of the sales process. And I think that includes. And again, this is another counterintuitive thing, but I was always taught hold on to the pricing discussion until you've built up enough value. Yeah. The term sticker shock has never been associated with anything positive in the history of the terms use, right?

[00:23:54] Like I'm a believer in also at the time. Set a pricing expectation. It doesn't have to be exact, but you just go here based on your environment. We think that the investment's going to be between X and Y. We've got to get into the details to get more precise than we might be off there, but that's the range.

[00:24:10] If that's going to be trouble. Let's talk about that now, before we get too deep into this, because in my heart, I believe that if we're talking about a six figure solution to a four figure buyer, one of us is in the wrong. And vice versa. If ours is a four figure solution and they're looking for something six, figure one of us is in the wrong decision or discussion.

[00:24:31] You better find that out right now. You're not going to build up enough value to make up for sticker shock it, that the odds of that happening are one in a hundred. I think your odds are better in embracing that whole piece. And again, get out quickly, you build trust. And it's amazing how often when you do that, the customers that say no to you right away, because.

[00:24:51] Are the ones that come back to you when they feel just this trust and endearment to what you do and the approach that you take. We can differentiate on our, our solutions, our pricing, our go to market, all of that. I think there's an opportunity to differentiate in the way that you sell. And I think this is a great way.

[00:25:12] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so many reps struggle with the pricing question when it's, when it's posed early on. Oh. You know, and, and they dance around and that's like the quickest way to lose trust and rapport. And like, in a lot of cases, if you don't give a, a reasonable range to find out now, Hey, does it make sense to it for us to even have the next conversation?

[00:25:35] Uh, and a lot of times you're never going to get that next conversation just because. Honest authentic, transparent with, with that to begin with. Exactly. And the referrals that you get to like that happens with me and what I do now. Like I speak and I teach workshops, right. And I will lead with, Hey, based on your organization and size, like, this is the range and I will have people go into, oh, all right.

[00:25:59] That's, that's more than we thought. That's more than we've got budgeted for this. Um, and I'm like, all right, cool. Like Danks, good. Like here's a couple of people that you can talk to that are more in your way. Right. And then they do, and it's amazing how much that either comes back to me, either through referrals, by those other people that I've referred business to, or by that person, themselves going to another company.

[00:26:20] And I'm the first one that they call. I again, think about playing the long game here. Uh, it's not just about your deal right now. That whole pipeline load discussion. We had our. If we're getting measured by that, we got to rethink that play the long game, and you'll find that your customers just that that foundation of trust has magical longterm.

[00:26:43] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exactly what you said is playing the long game, right? Your reputation as a seller matters. Um, and you want to make a good impression in all scenarios, regardless of the outcome. Um, I mean, I'm almost, as we're sitting here talking, I'm thinking of like, if there's a review product for sales reps,

[00:27:02] Um, by the way, so side note, there's a company called rep view that it's actually salespeople can go in and review their own companies. Uh, their, like the interview process, they, uh, comp plans, the environment that like that's coming there's reviews on. Everything now. And it's only, I've seen, I've seen rep view, but I'm saying imagine if an actual sales rep had their own,

[00:27:28] like it started saying, here's the things I'm good at. And here's the things I'm not so good at. You want to go on this journey together. It's funny that you are seeing that proliferate. Well Eagle where there's individual lawyers and realtors that are getting reviewed. I think, you might be able to find reviews on individual realtors now.

[00:27:48] So that's where it starts. It might be coming. I kind of hope not, but, uh, that's a little crazy, but, uh, I, yeah, I mean, That's the way the world's going. It's just, it'd be interesting. Maybe interesting to least. Yeah. Well, Todd, thanks so much for coming on. It's been a blast having this conversation, uh, where any final thoughts, where's the best people, you know, best place for people to connect with you or what are we going to include in the show notes for them?

[00:28:15] Well, I mean the book, the transparency sale, I wrote it to be kind of book. I would want to read, uh, chock full of behavioral science, but. Uh, the whole point I was trying to make with it is to make it, uh, immediately applicable to your messaging, your positioning, you're presenting your negotiating, all of those elements.

[00:28:32] So you could read it and take some pieces away and be doing this like tomorrow afternoon. Um, I, I do the sales history podcast for anybody. Who's a nerd on that. Just total hobby for me. If anybody wants to check that out, wherever they listen to podcasts. And then I am, uh, just finished the manuscript it's in edit right now for the transparent sales leader.

[00:28:52] So it's taking these concepts and applying it to leadership, not only in terms of structure, but the behavioral science around what really drives us the intrinsic inspiration of your teams so that they stay great resignation, right? Like how do you get them to stay, do their best every day and become advocates for your organization at a time where most everybody's got.

[00:29:14] You can find uh, for a lot of free stuff. That's out there that you just grab, have some fun. I write a blog and then I do post my nonsense on LinkedIn all the time. If you want to follow or connect with me there, just let me know when. Awesome. We'll drop those links in the show notes.

[00:29:31] Thanks again for coming on. If you enjoyed today's episode, please write us a review, share the show with your friends, and we're always listening for your feedback. You can go over to sales,, drop us a voice DM, and we will get back to you. Hey, you stuck around that tells me you're serious about your own sales transformation.

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