Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Nov. 29, 2021

#204 S2 Episode 73 - From Introverted Science Nerd to Creating a Safe Environment for Sellers to Practice with Jonathan Mahan

This episode of the Sales Transformation Podcast with Collin Mitchell features Jonathan Mahan. Jonathan shares the importance of being able to make good decisions in a sales environment. To be good at something, you need a certain set of skills, and he highlights those in his talks.


Jonathan is an introverted science nerd from Colorado who somehow wound up making his living as a sales practitioner. Throughout his career, he has regularly engaged in deliberate practice to improve his sales skills and become a top performer.  His passion recently led him to co-found The Practice Lab, a program for B2B sellers to come together and practice their craft in the same way that performers and athletes practice theirs.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell. And this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.

[00:00:24] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation. I'm super pumped up today. Uh, I've got Jonathan Mehan on and we're going to talk about his own sales transformation as well as the fantastic work that him and Jordan are doing over at practice lab. Jonathan was a, an introverted, introverted, uh, science nerd from Colorado who somehow.

[00:00:46] Wound up making a living as a sales practitioner throughout his career. He is regularly engaged in deliberate practice to improve his sales skills. And that's something that we're definitely going to cover today. Jonathan, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me on. Yeah. Awesome. I'm really pumped up to have this conversation, um, ever since Jordanna, uh, told me about what you guys are doing over at practice lab.

[00:01:09] I've been a big supporter and I know that we're going to get to that, but before we do, I just want to talk a little bit about, you know, where did your sales career start? Where did you, you know, give me your sales. I think it's probably all too familiar to a lot of folks in sales. Uh, I got a college degree in natural resource management, right?

[00:01:27] So I spent most of my childhood interested in the sciences, particularly particularly natural sciences. Uh, I got out of college quickly realized there was no jobs in that field and the jobs there were, it didn't pay Rutgers. So I just got a sales job temporarily just told me over until I could find something in my, you know, my real job and my real profession.

[00:01:43] Um, and then I got another sales job and another and another and another, and here we are, you know, eight years later and I'm still in sales and there's still no jobs in natural resources. That's certainly not little thing, anything like what sales does. So, um, definitely wasn't anything I ever expected.

[00:01:59] Right. You know, I, I grew up. And introverted. I wasn't necessarily shy that. I couldn't talk to people. I just wasn't very good at it. Didn't really have a lot of interest in it, so it didn't really bother. So I didn't have, you know, the best conversational skills for sure. So I never would have imagined myself in a, you know, a customer facing role and certainly not one where, you know, you know, persuasion and charisma are needed and all these things, right.

[00:02:22] These were never my natural skillsets. Wow. Okay. So, um, I'm curious, what were you selling when you first got in and was that, you know, how awkward was that from, you know, just kind of, you know, even just what you had in your bio and what you went to school for, like getting a sales job clearly, wasn't the plan.

[00:02:40] Um, but that's the way things went and you've stuck with it, but just take me back to like that first sales experience and what it was like for you. Yeah, it was, um, door to door and it was like a summer job. That was the very beginning. Um, and then my first full-time job after college was in retail sales.

[00:03:01] Right. So I like sold cell phones at Verizon. Um, but that door to door role was interesting. I think in some ways that's a great way to start sales. Cause it forces you to build that emotional resilience real freaking fast. Um, and then from there, everything else, you know, you can power through once you've had to get that emotional resilience.

[00:03:16] Walking through the heat for six hours in the summer, getting doors slammed in your face and all sorts of stuff. Um, so yeah, that, that was when I started door to door and it was, it was definitely, definitely rough. Um, I think I mostly just survived because I was so dang persistent, you know, like I was able to just power through and keep talking.

[00:03:35] Even when people were clearly showing me signals, they wanted me to shut up. I just kept going. And eventually enough people said, yes, I hit my numbers and. Maybe it had it made a go of it. I guess I'm always super intrigued by people who start off in door to door sales. I feel like if you can survive that as a sales job, uh, you can, you, you can, you're clearly cut out for this profession and you can, you know, you can make a career out of it if you get through that.

[00:04:04] Which I think a lot of people probably like. Uh, a lot of people probably quit early on where there's just like, this is, you know, they have that experience in door to door sales and you're like, sales is not for me.

[00:04:18] Yeah. And I sit, it's certainly nothing I would want to go back and do again. Yeah. Okay. So, um, what is it about sales that, you know, you just kind of stuck with it, even though it was kind of very polar opposite to what you maybe thought you were doing. I think the thing that held me in and helped me do well, is that, you know, with my interest in science, um, I believe very interested in psychology from high school on through college and was just a avid learner in anything involving how the human mind worked.

[00:04:48] Right. You know? Psychology courses. I took in high school in college, and then even after graduation, I was continually consuming books. Um, about just how the human mind works. I found it truly, truly fascinating and still do to this day. Right? Like that is the part of sales I liked the most. So, you know what?

[00:05:03] I first started realizing as a salesperson that. People's perception of what I'm saying varies greatly based on the exact word choice I use. That was really interesting. So I started experimenting them, but what if I say it this way? And what if I say it this way? What if I say it this way and seeing the markedly different outcomes I got based on how I said it, in the words I chose, it was very interesting.

[00:05:22] Right. And it did kind of satisfy a bit of that scientific mind that I have. Okay. Thinking and experimenting and coming up with theories and hypotheses and mental models that I work with and then testing out those models in real life to see how they play out. Right. And then just kind of continually learning as I went and it gave me a really fun field to play into practice.

[00:05:40] Right. So, you know, I would read a book, let's say predictably irrational by Dan Arielli, right. Talks about all sorts of shortcuts. And we'll say failings in the human mind, I would read that book in the evenings and be like, that's fascinating. Next day, I go into work and try it out and try pitching.

[00:05:57] Screen protector for this phone or pitching this, you know, unlimited data bundle deal in a different way and to see how it worked. Right. So I think that's what held me into it that I found some enjoyment. And then again, I think that's the piece that allowed me to be good at it, even though I'm not naturally the best people person.

[00:06:13] Um, it was that focused on psychology and the human mind that helped.

[00:06:19] Wow. That's super interesting. So you almost, it's almost like you turn sales into your own little science experiment. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's that's, that's what that's, what's allowed me to stick with it this long, honestly. Um, I, I don't. I don't think sales is still the best fit for me. Right. It's okay.

[00:06:41] But it's certainly not a perfect fit for me. Um, and especially like the focus in sales about like short term goals and numbers and all this stuff. Um, it just, I get burned out. Right. So the way I, and I have been able to stay in sales and keep myself reasonably healthy mentally is just by focusing on honing my craft and improving my art and learning more and getting better.

[00:07:04] And like that's the ultimate goal, the ultimate vision. That's why I show up day after day is to become a better salesperson. Sometimes I have good quarters. Sometimes I have bad quarters at some companies. I'm top of the charts at some companies I'm middle of the pack, right. That all stuff changes, but like throughout all of it, I'm just continually focused on becoming better.

[00:07:21] And that gives me this, like, you know, greater purpose to my work other than just, I got to hit a number this quarter and then next quarter starts and all of that doesn't matter anymore. And I'm back to zero, right. That mentality. Isn't really a healthy. Yeah. I mean, it's so easy for sellers to get caught up in that, that mentality of right.

[00:07:42] You know, and I, even my, even, even my own personal journey in sales early on, um, you know, I had a hard time not tying my self worth to my number. You know, and I think a lot of sellers struggle with that and that's how they burn out, give up on the sales as a profession entirely, um, or even just maybe stick with it, but have a really hard time.

[00:08:10] Yeah, there's a lot about sales cultures, sales structures, sales norms, starting right up at the top at leadership and even above them, but the CEO level, which leads to poor mental health leads to burnout leads to a lot of unhappiness, um, for salespeople. So we all, I think have to find our own ways to cope and survive in what is oftentimes an unhealthy structure around us.

[00:08:34] Yeah. And, and, and it sounds like you found kind of what drove you in sales, right? Not everybody, you know, I just had a great conversation with Kevin Dorsey. Um, and he's got a very interesting unpopular opinion about commissions and whether salespeople are actually money motivated or not. And there's actually, you know, a lot of, uh, data according to him that.

[00:08:58] Very few people actually are money motivated and everybody thinks like salespeople are money motivated or have to be money motivated or need to be money motivated. Um, but it sounds like you found what motivated you, which was like that constantly testing and trying new things that got you better at your craft and professional in sales, right?

[00:09:15] Like reading these books and then implementing and, and trying these different experiments and practicing them is what sort of drove you to success in your sales roles. Yeah, no, I I've never heard Katie talk about that, but, um, I'm assuming I would probably align very much with his perspective there, uh, the idea that the only way to get people to work hard and do their best is to put in a position where they can't pay their bills.

[00:09:38] If they don't right where they're worried about their financial safety. And that's the only way you can get them to work hard. It's a very, very outdated model of how to motivate people and how to get the best out of people. So, yeah, I personally don't. Salespeople should have commissions myself, or at least that should be a small part of their pay.

[00:09:55] Right. You know, like a 75, 25, 80, 20, maybe even 90 10 split rather than the traditional 50 50. We see out there today. But that is a rabbit hole. I don't know if we want to go down right now. Yeah. And you will want it. You'll want to check out the episode with Katie because, um, I was definitely on the fence about it, but if you're on the fence about it at all, he makes a good case.

[00:10:18] I could not think of anything to defend it. And there's some very valid points in there. Um, and there is like comp plans for the very small percentage of unique individuals that are money-motivated right. Cause those people do exist and they do perform well, but it's far less than what most people think.

[00:10:36] And to your point there, you know, talking about, you know, motivating people through money and, you know, basically only paying them enough money to barely survive and be stressed out. It has the exact opposite effect. The sales bosses are hoping for it stresses them out and they don't perform because they're so stressed out about their situation.

[00:10:54] Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. So, you know, fear has a really strong physiologic effect on the human brain, right? When you're in a place of fear and self preservation, you don't think as clearly, your frontal cortex does not operate as quickly. You get much more pushed into that fight or flight. More emotion driven mode, just cause you know, uh, hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has, has pushed us to operate that way.

[00:11:20] And in a sales environment, you really, really need your frontal cortex to be functioning optimally and the best way to get that brain to function and to be able to think clearly and make good decisions. Is to be in a state of relaxation and calm, which is really hard to get to when you're in a comp structure that says, Hey buddy, you're about to lose $3,000 in the ability to pay a mortgage.

[00:11:40] If this deal goes south, you're going to be in a state of fear. Right. And you're not going to function as well. So yes, absolutely. I will be checking out that episode with Katie. Yeah. So, um, um, I'm curious if when you. And I dunno if this is the right word, but I feel like it is here. When did you get obsessed with practice?

[00:12:01] Like, did you read something that sort of inspired it or is it just your fascination with like human psychology? Um, when did you get so fascinated with practice? It, uh, it's happened over the course of a few years. Um, I think it started back in maybe 2019 that I first started using practice as a sales professional.

[00:12:21] Um, and you know, recently researched maybe. Within the last year or so. Um, but I think really what I started to realize as I was in sales management, leading a team was that traditional views is that your sales people just need to work harder. They just need to try harder. They just need to care more.

[00:12:41] Let's give them spiffs, let's give them incentives. Let's put them on pips. But the idea was, all we need to do is push harder on them so that they push harder on themselves and they live a more outcomes. But I started to realize. Maybe people are doing the best. They can know how to do. Maybe with their given knowledge, they're given skillset, they're given, you know, mental abilities and verbal abilities, et cetera.

[00:13:03] Maybe this is the best they can do. In which case, you know, putting more incentives, more, uh, pressure in the form of pips, more spiffs, isn't really going to help anything. So then I started asking myself, okay, well maybe if people. I doing the best I can do. How do you improve performance? Well it's to help them improve their skillset.

[00:13:20] So I kind of shifted out of thinking that it's all about hustle and willpower and motivation and more into you can only deliver what you're capable of delivering, right? And if you want to improve results, you need to become more skilled. You need to become more knowledgeable. You need to become just better at your craft.

[00:13:38] Right. And that kind of started bringing into me these ideas of thinking of. Professionals and how they got to the tops of their game. Right? Obviously athletes come to mind. Musicians come to mind. Actors come to mind. But honestly, I think like improv comedians and martial artists are even better analogies to salespeople, but in all these disciplines, You know, you, you don't expect to do better in a martial arts competition just by trying harder, right?

[00:14:02] If you want to do better in martial arts competition, you practice, you learn skills, you do all sorts of stuff, but you don't just show up and try harder, right? Because you can only do as well as you know how to do. So it started in 2019 and I think it really blossomed in me when I started a new job. So I started a new job in March of 2021.

[00:14:20] And like most people starting a new job. I had big ambitions, wanted to crush it, want it to be the top guy in the sales team. And I said, okay, if I'm going to be top guy, I can't just show up as to me. I am now and try harder. I need to actually improve myself and become better, more skilled, more talented.

[00:14:36] So I started reading books about specifically how people read. The highest level of achievement. There's a book called peak and is a book called the talent code, which really the backbone of how I think about my own personal development now in sales. And both those books are by folks. Who've spent decades studying top performers, again, musicians, martial artists, athletes, et cetera, and figuring out what helps them get to the top of their game.

[00:14:58] And as I read those books and looked at my own experience as a sales person, I realized. There is almost no overlap between how these masters become, you know, at the top of their game and these other disciplines and how salespeople are expected to train and improve, right? Like for some reason, the, the science of human development improvement.

[00:15:17] And kept out of the sales profession. Um, and we're still working on horribly antiquated, outdated models of how to improve performance. So yeah, it really took off when I read those books, uh, earlier this year.

[00:15:32] Wow. Wow. I mean, you've. I'm just super fascinated with these, these books that you've read. I'm definitely going to have to check some of these out because I'm super curious now. And so just when you transitioned to that new, new role in sort of reading these books, um, is that when it sort of clicked like, oh, you know, salespeople need to be practicing.

[00:15:55] Everybody else in every other thing that they ever want to be good at. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Um, it was kind of an interesting experience too. So I'm starting a new job. I'm reading these books simultaneous to that. I'm going through onboarding. Right? Part of my onboarding is taking the company sales training, right.

[00:16:13] Where I'm going through, I'm watching videos, stuff like that. And the company actually did a pretty good job of teaching some really good material, right. As far as how effective good selling is done, a lot of. Stuff that I would consider true in how to sell well was in fact in the sales training is probably the best sales training I've ever been through it.

[00:16:29] A company simultaneous to that, I was watching recordings of my colleagues on calls, right. To see how, how they were doing it. And it was really interesting. We're on one given morning. Watch a video in my training about what kind of discovery questions to ask and how to position our product. And then I would watch gone calls and see absolutely none of those behaviors exhibited.

[00:16:51] And every single day, I had the same experience where I spent the morning watching training videos. I'd spend an hour in the afternoon watching gong calls and there was complete total mismatch between what was being trained and what was being done. And I realized that even in my own life I'd experienced that right.

[00:17:06] I'm a pretty avid reader. So I read a lot of different sales books and I listened to a lot of different sales pots. You know, I've for example, I've read and re-read spin selling a number of times. I think it's a fantastic book yet. If you were to watch my discovery calls and kind of keep tally of how many situation, problem, impact need path questions I was asking, it would be pretty low, you know, so I realized, hang on, knowing something.

[00:17:29] Intellectually and understanding it and being able to actually pull it off on the fly in a real sales call when time is ticking, when emotions are running high, when everything's at stake, being able to actually like find the right wording and hear the right cues and think about the, where to take the conversation and deliver it with the right tone.

[00:17:48] Like all these things. I'm very much skills that have to be practiced. And again, you can't just use willpower to force yourself to do these things. Well, you either have the skill because you've done the practice or you don't. So I said, okay, well, I want to spend a lot of my time focused on gaining those skills in advance of my sales calls outside of my sales calls.

[00:18:08] So all my sales call actually comes, I can deliver. Behavior because I've practiced it in advance. So that's when I started doing some practice related stuff at my own company, which is kind of the precursors to the practice lab. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the key right there, I think is people needing to understand that knowing something versus, you know, being able to actually do it, being able to actually execute it are two totally different things.

[00:18:37] Right. I mean, if knowing things was enough and coaches would just, you know, talk at their players and there would be no practice. Yeah. It's, it's interesting because it seems like it's such a simple concept, but like, why is nobody doing this? I think it's, um, I think it's the mechanics, right? People haven't yet figured out how to practice these skills and develop these skills.

[00:19:09] It's interesting. So right now, you know, I'm very much a big advocate for salespeople and practicing. Some of that involves what traditionally has been called role play in the past. Some of it. Beyond that. Um, but for like the first four to six years of my selling career, I freaking hated role-playing. I never did.

[00:19:24] Role-playing when I was, you know, managing Verizon stores, I never had my team do role-plays. I hated them. They hated them. I thought they were a waste of time. Right. Because there of course is a massive difference between a real sales conversation and a real prospect. And you and your manager talking back and forth, making up scenarios, pretending to be prospects and stuff.

[00:19:43] Right. Um, so it felt to me, you know, in the past, like, All the rope, you know, doing role play, you could become an expert at role-play and still suck on the floor, right? Or in real sales calls, because those are fundamentally two different worlds, two different environments. The rules of the game are different, right?

[00:19:59] Again, you could become a role-play expert and still be terrible on the floor and vice versa. So I never bothered with traditional role-plays. And I think a lot of people are kind of stuck in the same place where they feel like these skills that you need to be good at selling. Can't be practiced outside a real sales.

[00:20:14] Because it's impossible to manufacture an environment to practice them in outside a real sales call. Um, and I think that's just an accepted limitation that people say it, you just can't do it right. Has to be, has to be real. It has to be a real objection from a real buyer on a real sale role-playing doesn't help, but kind of the breakthrough for me was when I started hosting podcast.

[00:20:35] I think this is probably a real big thing that kind of pushed me down the path I'm on right now. I started holding a hosting podcast for reasons, completely unrelated to sales, total side project, side hobby, et cetera. What I noticed within a few months of doing this podcast is that I was getting a hell of a lot better on my discovery calls.

[00:20:53] I was better at listening. I was better at asking questions. I was better at. Interesting dance, where you have to simultaneously hold on to a question that you want to ask them later, while also keeping your mind open to maybe change course and ignore that question, this beautiful mesh of life flexibility while still holding to a general roadmap.

[00:21:09] Like those were really difficult skills that I'd never really mastered in the discovery call, but as I started becoming a podcast host. I started learning those skills and suddenly my sales calls started getting better. That was the big aha moment for me, where I went, Hey, wait a minute. You can learn these basic fundamental neurological brain skills outside of the environment of a real sales call, but they're still transferring.

[00:21:32] Right in the same way that there's no football player out there, whoever lifts a heavy bar above their chest on a football game. And yet every football player still does bench presses because those muscles that they, you know, pick up doing bench presses are useful in the game. Right. You know, in my sales podcast, I'm asking, or I'm sorry, my podcast, I was asking questions of guests having conversations completely unrelated to sales.

[00:21:53] Literally I can tell you, there's not a single question. I asked to my podcast, guests that I asked in discovery call. However, that same muscle was. The curiosity of listening, of forming good questions of controlling the direction and conversation of the call, all these things that you need to be good at sales.

[00:22:09] So I think that might be the barrier for people. Like they don't know how to practice mental brain skills. And, you know, to be honest, that's something I'm still figuring out. Right. I've, I've had my first aha moment, but there's still, I'm sure many more aha moments ahead of me that I haven't come to yet, as far as figuring out how I really practice these mental skills.

[00:22:27] Yeah. Well, now you're speaking my love language, um, because yeah, I mean, I know you and I talked briefly to, um, there's so many skills as a podcaster that are transferable for, to be, you know, being in sales and you just described all of them very well. Um, Even though, especially like your podcast has nothing to do with sales.

[00:22:47] Right. But all of those skills of, you know, listening better and asking better questions and curiosity, and, you know, being able to drive a conversation in a particular direction, all of those are skills that will help you in any sales role. So I love that example. Um, you know, and I know that you guys are still kind of experimenting in the lab with a lot of things of like, Hey, you know, there's some skills that maybe there just isn't something that is.

[00:23:11] As simple or clear-cut is like, Hey, be a podcast, host and run better discovery calls, you know? Um, but what skills have you guys sort of figured out like, Hey, there, here's some thing here's some skills that sellers need and they're clearly mapped to some things that we can practice for sellers to get better at those skills.

[00:23:32] Then they can implement in their roles. Yeah. So some skills, I do think role play, you know, traditional role play isn't appropriate vehicle, um, because there are some moments in sales conversations, which are relatively predictable and the way you handle them will be very simple. In each case, um, I would say great example.

[00:23:53] This is how you open a call, right? Opening a discovery call setting an initial agenda. That's fairly predictable moment on, it's not going to be the same every time, but, um, you can role play how you open your calls, right? Even to an extent how you initially respond to objections, why the truth is, you know, of all the objections I get probably 80% of the objections.

[00:24:15] Probably fall into like four major buckets, right? The timing is right and not right. The price isn't right. And et cetera. So you can play responses to those particular objections. And I think that's appropriate right now. There are some things that don't really suit themselves to role-play I'm a firm believer that you should never, role-play a discovery call complete waste of your time.

[00:24:34] I'm sorry. Nobody pretending to be a prospect is going through. Believable prospect, the conversation has got to be natural. Again, this is one of those areas where you could be a real master of role-playing discovery and still suck at actually doing discovery in real life. However, one of the, again, aha moments that I've had, it means Rodin I've had together is realizing.

[00:24:54] To be good at discovery. You need to be good at curiosity, you need to be good at lists of that. You need to be good at controlling your body language. And if, you know, making the person feel heard by using empathy, you need to be good at asking difficult pointed questions. You need to be good. Piecing together what you're hearing and recognizing gaps.

[00:25:12] So that maybe things that haven't been covered yet and were areas that you should poke and prod. You need to be good at, you know, paying attention to body language and looking for emotional cues to help you understand where there might be something deeper under the surface behind that simple sentence, that escape that you should dive into, you can learn all of those skills outside of a sales context.

[00:25:29] So you can actually create exercises, which aren't based on sales. Which are just two people talking, having a conversation together along certain kind of guided perimeters, right? One person having the role of the Enquirer. Who's doing the asking one person having the role of the, the answer who's kind of talking about themselves and their life and the asker.

[00:25:47] The salesperson can practice those same skills of asking questions, being very direct, mirroring body language, and making the person feel seen, heard, understood, and, you know, really exploring a topic. And, you know, the different impacts, you know, a person's experiencing and the problems they're experiencing and all these things, and it doesn't have to be sales related.

[00:26:07] So in our exercises, we may have you come into a room and just sit down, right. We're going to do a virtual zoom room and say, okay, questioner, find out from this person, what their biggest challenge has been this quarter, find out what the underlying cause of the challenges and find out what the impact of the challenge are.

[00:26:23] No, one's, role-playing anyone you're being your real selves, but you're just having a conversation about problems impacts and root causes. And by the way, that's what you're doing at the discovery call, but you don't have to be in a discovery call to practice that skill. Right. You can be outside of that context to practice that skill and still get better at that.

[00:26:41] So, yeah. And that's gotta be refreshing, right? Because I mean, sellers are in their role selling all day, like, do they really want it? Practice and pretend and play out different role playing scenarios of cells, situations that are manufactured and made up. Right. Um, or just have a, you know, like a real conversation in a safe place that allows them to acquire the skills that they need to then go be a better version of the self in their role.

[00:27:11] Um, this is awesome. I mean, what are, what's some of the early feedback that, you know, people that have experienced. Practice lab, um, are saying, and then let's just sort of wrap this up any final thoughts and tell people where they can sign up for practice lab. Yeah, it's interesting. We've had a number of folks.

[00:27:29] We counted it, a beta test of the program for six weeks before launching it. And some folks in there were, were brand new to sales, right? And some folks in there have been doing sales for 30 years, but consistently we kept hearing that this was actually changing their behaviors. No, some of these people were using recording software and actually could capture this.

[00:27:48] And it was great to kind of watch their journey as they would send us clips with their real sales calls. Some folks, you know, we're doing more in-person sales that weren't recorded, but we kept hearing the same feedback, which is, this is actually changing my selling, right. I'm actually selling better.

[00:27:59] I'm showing up, I'm bringing this into real calls and I'm seeing a difference because I don't know what, you know, what listeners experiences have been, but I've been through a lot of sales trading in my life. Some of it was boring. Some of it was fascinating, but at the end of that, I still went back to sell the same way.

[00:28:15] It always sold, right. At a certain point, you know, a great speaker, a great trainer just becomes a type of entertainment, right? Where you show up, you sit there for 90 minutes. You have your mind blown with all these brilliant sales concept and go. That's amazing. This guy's a genius. But for my selling, didn't actually change because in order to execute the things you were learning required a certain degree of skill that I had never gained.

[00:28:36] So in absence of the skill to pull off these great advanced techniques, learning about them, it was nothing but entertainment. So that's been the main feedback that people have gotten, right? It's actually impacting my selling behaviors. I've been in sales for 30 years and I've never went through training.

[00:28:49] That actually changed the way I sold. And here in six weeks, you know, I've actually had my selling sheet. So that's, that's been a big part of it. And again, we're looking forward to this, this first cohort that's launching, um, you know, Q1 of 20, 22 and beyond. It's definitely a fun adventure to be on. Right.

[00:29:06] We're we're still learning a lot as we put this thing together. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's awesome. I know that, um, you and Jordanna have been working really hard to get this out to people and doing some great work. Tell folks where they can sign up for practice lab. We're going to make sure to drop that link in the show notes.

[00:29:24] And thanks so much for talking about, um, you know, these, this practice. I think it's something that people are going to start talking about more, um, and you enjoyed and are doing some awesome work to, to get the word out of. Yeah, I know simply just go to the practice lab.co dot C O. If you go to.com, you'll find something completely different.

[00:29:44] So the practice lab.com is where you want to go. Um, and you can apply there. Uh, we admit folks on an application basis, so you can just submit your application there and, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll work you into the next cohort. Awesome. Thanks so much, Sean. Really appreciate it. If you enjoyed today's episode, please radish review, share the show with your friends.

[00:30:02] It really does help us out. And we are also listening for your feedback. You can always go to sales, transformation.fm, drop us a voice diem there, and we will get back to you. Hey, you stuck around that tells me you're serious about your own sales transformation. If you're tired of doing things the old way and want to get started in your journey with other people on the same page.

[00:30:22] Head over to sales, cast.community and crush your numbers on your local. Yeah, it's free sales cast.community. Send me a DM with your best pitch and mention this ad. And I might even give you free access to our best templates.