Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Dec. 1, 2021

#203 S2 Episode 72 - From Snacks as Service to 2X Unicorn Sales Leader with Kevin "KD" Dorsey

This episode of the Sales Transformation Podcast with Collin Mitchell features Kevin "KD" Dorsey, VP of Inside Sales at PatientPop and host of the Live Better Sell Better podcast.

KD shares that motivating salespeople is very different from making a coin-operated machine work. Sales is the opposite, where the chips are handed in first before the money is put in.

This means that motivation is not transactional except for a minority of people who are truly money-motivated. So, there is a need for a radical shift to accept that money is not what drives behavior. It's relationships that make top performers remain top performers.

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02:32 KD's sales journey and his realization that there is always a job in sales 

06:50 Entering SaaS sales and cutting his teeth in Snacks as a Service

11:50 Imitating the repeatable outbound processes from Aaron Ross

16:30 A relationship versus a transaction: Sales is not a coin-operated machine

25:10 Paying people before sales are made: A radical experiment that works

32:23 Buyers don't trust commission breath, so change comp plans

36:04 Connect with KD


05:25 "Chips on shoulders put chips in pockets, baby. Maybe you find people that got a chip on their shoulder, something to prove, they always will outperform people that don't."

09:02 "When you think about building any high-performing org, you have to have the right people, you have to have the right process, and you have to have a phenomenal understanding of your prospect. No matter what you're selling, those three things matter."

17:10 "Anything that requires money for something else to occur is not a relationship, that is a transaction. Period."

20:48 "IIW. Is it working? If only 35% of people are hitting their goal in sales with a compensation structure that's supposedly designed to drive the behaviors to get to their goal, is it working?"

25:54 "Comp plans from most companies are lazy management. They think the comp plan will drive the behavior. It won't and it doesn't and I've tested enough times now to see that it truly does not."

Learn more about KD in the links below:

Learn more about Collin in the link below: 

Also, you can join our community by checking out If you're a sales professional looking to take your career to greater heights, please visit us at and set a call with Collin and Chris. 

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[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell. And this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.

[00:00:24] All right. Welcome to another episode of sales transformation. I'm super pumped up for today's guest. I've got Kevin Katie Dorsey, um, and he's got a podcast. He's a leading is a sales leader over at patient pop. He does all kinds of stuff. We've got some interesting topics that we're going to talk about today, but we're also going to dig into his story as well.

[00:00:43] So Katie, welcome to the show. Hi, long time coming. My man, we finally, we finally made it happen, made it real, some pumps. Yeah, man. I love your bio. You drink and you know, some stuff about sassy, you know, short and sweet dude. I love a good bourbon. I love a good tequila and I'm obsessed with SAS sales and psychology and influence man.

[00:01:04] That's that's where I spend my time. Yeah. And you're you and you, you. I know you're from LA over here where I am, but now you're in Texas. Yeah. So made, made the move. And one of those, you know, but we did at peak pandemic, we did it before. Like things really hit the fan, right change, man. I'm like, LA is my home base.

[00:01:24] I haven't tattooed down my side. It will always be a part of me, but you know, it's time to, to make a move and we. Ah, man, it's, it's a hard, it's a hard move to make me and my wife have been talking about it. And, uh, I think a lot of people live here have that love, hate relationship with absolutely. I joke about this with people like LA, is that like really attractive X that, you know, you shouldn't be with, but you are because they're good looking that's exactly what LA is.

[00:01:50] There's no logical reason to stay in LA for the costs, the stress, the traffic, everything that comes with. But it's LA and he got the beach and it's just, it's just so good looking, right? Like, so you talk yourself into it, but there's no real good reason when you break it down to just stay, unless you have to, for your industry, which is.

[00:02:10] No longer the case for so many people. So it is what it is. I love LA that's why I can talk bad about it. Yeah. I'm definitely taking that little short clips snippet and putting it into and shipping that to my wife. Right, man, let's get into it. Where did your sales career. Start, like, what were you doing was digging there and taking it from there.

[00:02:32] I mean, where it started was like selling like raffle tickets door to door to raise money for like my little league team or something, you know, like that's, that's where it started. And funny enough, I think that's the way in very early on. I started to understand like the numbers of sales and I'm like, okay, I can hit 20 doors in an hour.

[00:02:51] If I can get at least five people to answer and one person to say yes, all right, I got to hit a hundred doors to do this. Where are there a hundred doors? And then you start thinking like, which doors are most likely to answer. And so that was, I think, when I started selling, but even then like thinking of a process, right?

[00:03:06] Like breaking down, like the numbers and what I need to do to get there from a very early. Age. And so did that. Um, but I wouldn't, I'm not a natural salesperson like that. This was not, I was never described as such. I would not describe myself as such. I'm not an extrovert, which I also think surprises a lot of people, I'm way more of an introvert than I am an extrovert.

[00:03:26] But one thing that I've always done in my life has been very big on patterns, right? Like I pick up on patterns very quickly. And when I was in class, Uh, I dropped out 15 credit short. It doesn't a career in a major that I did not want to do anymore. And I felt that I was wasting time and money and energy and all those things, but I still needed a job.

[00:03:45] And one of the patterns I picked up on is like, there's always sales jobs, always, no matter what, even if they're commission only, there are always sales job. So it's was like, even if I'm. Just okay. At this, at least I'll always have a job. I will always be able to find a job in sales. And so that's what started, I would say like my professional journey and I've sold insurance, knockoff, Cutco knives.

[00:04:06] That was a shit show that didn't go well, multi-level marketing XM radios. And then I got into personal training sales and then from there, but that was really what started the journey for me. It was like, there's always sales jobs. So I might as well figure out how to do it. Um, wow. I mean, I'm super intrigued by, at a young age, like selling raffle tickets that you were already figuring out like the numbers and the process.

[00:04:29] Right. Because most people aren't figuring that most kids at that age are like, man, this sucks. I don't want to do this. Let's hurry up and just knock on these doors so I can get it over with and say, I did it right. Yeah, so good, good friend of mine, Jacko, Vander, Cujo over at winning by design. He said something a couple years back that really resonated with me.

[00:04:49] He said, chips on shoulders, put chips in pockets. And I think that's a big part of what drove me is I didn't have much, I didn't come from much. I had that chip on my shoulder. It wasn't optional. Right. It was like, all right, like I need to do these things that I do at our house. I had a paper route like that.

[00:05:05] Wasn't sales. I had a paper route when I was very young to. When you come from nothing, sometimes that drives you to do more, right? Like numbers have always been my thing. I love math. I love math. I've always been, I think that was something that I came in to that too of like, okay, like what are the numbers to hit the numbers?

[00:05:24] And I went for a man, but like chips on shoulders, put chips and pockets. Maybe you find people who got a chip on their shoulder, something to prove they always will outperform people. Absolutely. I couldn't agree. I mean, my story is kind of similar, you know, I was raised by a single mom, came from nothing.

[00:05:38] We were dirt poor. And like, you know, I barely made it through high school. College was clearly not in the cards for me. Nobody even told me it was important and it wasn't like sales was my fallback plan or my plan B. It was like, there was nothing else out there that was willing to take a chance on me.

[00:05:55] And I made them. Love it. So, all right. So let's, let's talk like when did you get into SAS sales and in, you know, after like, you know, you kind of walked through lots of different sense of doing different things, even, um, you know, knock-off Cutco knives. First time I heard that one, I heard a lot of Cutco.

[00:06:13] I've heard a lot of people that cut their teeth in Cutco. Um, but knockoffs, that was the first one blades. Shocking that I didn't do very well in that, but you know, it is what it is. I was chasing the cash at that time. They had a better commission plan, but I didn't realize you actually had to be able to sell them to make the better commission.

[00:06:32] So, you know, it is what it is. Learning lessons didn't work out too well on the spreadsheet. It did though. The math always works in the spreadsheet. No matter what it works in the spreadsheet, it just didn't work in real life. So learning lesson. Yeah. So, so when, when did you get into SAS? And sort of walk me through that journey.

[00:06:50] So technically, and I actually, this, I think not a lot of people know this or surprises people, technically speaking, I've only been in SAS for four years, technically technically to the letter I've only been in SAS for four years, service Titan. Patient pop prior to that, I was at SnackNation, but we call it a snacks company, right.

[00:07:11] Snacks as a service because literally everything I built there and that's truly where I cut my teeth and building large high performing sales org was the same as SAS recurring revenue targeting. You know, HR talking to high level executives, outbound selling with inbound. Like I built everything there.

[00:07:31] The same way a SAS company would build it just wasn't technically SAS. Right. And so that's why I was going to kick would be like, oh, you got to have SAS experience. It's like, really, really like you have, because it's that different. To sell this stuff, right? Like, cause that's what was fun too. I was selling snacks in a box.

[00:07:49] Dude. I went from zero reps to over 70 reps, went from zero revenue to almost 25 million in revenue, ARR and under three years selling snacks in a box. Right. So now give me a software. You kidding me? Like I don't have a software I can sell. It has true, tangible. It's easier to sell SAS than it is to sell a lot of these other things.

[00:08:10] Right. So my journey, I would say building high performing sales orgs was with SnackNation from there. I was able to go to service Titan. Now, a unicorn to PatientPop now a unicorn, right? So I got two of those bad boys under my belt. And, you know, we'll see what I do for the rest of my career. Keep chasing those corns.

[00:08:27] Maybe keep Jason let's dig into. Snacks as a service experience. Um, cause I'm curious from zero reps to 70 reps, what did that journey look like? You know, a part of your bio was like, there's been a lot of failure as well. Right? I believe failure is the recipe to success. Um, and so I'm curious, like, you know, what did you building out a model that's very similar to a SAS model for a snacks as a service company.

[00:08:55] Walk me through what that journey was. I mean, it's really the same as that thing is like any journey, right? When you think about building any high-performing org, you have to have the right people, you have to have the right process and you have to have a phenomenal understanding of your prospect, no matter what you're selling.

[00:09:14] Those three things matter. And that's where I spent all my time figuring things out. There's also a triggered me building my brand. Right. It was like, all right, I wanted people. To want to work for me. Right. I wanted the right people to want to work for me. If you had an idea of kind of who I was and how I operated you'd come join a company like SnackNation and I could not pay top dollar.

[00:09:34] So what do other people care about besides cash? They care about the. So that's where I really focus on being the coach and the teacher and building out a phenomenal training program to make people better. So now, while I'm developing people on building out the processes, right? So I'm learning from the Aaron Ross's of the world.

[00:09:53] The micro bears is over the world, the Kevin Gaither's of the world at that time of going like, okay, like how did they build these things out? All right. Imitate first innovation. All I did was imitate. I said, all right, well, this is what other people did successfully. Let me imitate first, do what they did and then start to innovate.

[00:10:12] And then that last part is like, knowing the space. Right. I knew this space well, because the company, human human stood for helping unite mankind and nutrition was a healthy, vending and healthy market company. So a lot of people don't know that about my career there, that these are seven figure deals.

[00:10:29] This was enterprise type selling, right. Selling to the big companies, putting the markets in their office and vending machines on every floor, selling to school districts and RPS and the governments and all that. Like that was coming. Big or big deals there with an org while building SnackNation, but I knew the space well, and that's what allowed me to take it to, to market very quickly.

[00:10:49] And when I told, when we went through this, the, the question got brought up with like, could we do it also pattern recognition? We were throwing away over 70% of our inbound leads for healthy vending, because they were too small for events. The pattern is smaller. Offices need this more than the bigger offices would a smaller office be willing to pay for snacks in their office.

[00:11:12] So I said, give me, give me three reps in three months to see if we can do this. We did. And then. All right in that completely, that completely changed the company. Right. SnackNation became the thing. Human and human was the number one franchise in the country. We were on Inc. 500 round Forbes list. We were an entrepreneur magazine.

[00:11:30] It was the best of the best. And we shut that down because of what SnackNation. Wow, what an incredible story. And I love, I love that piece there. Imitate innovate. Right? What are some things that you took from some of the people that you mentioned that you imitated to build out that model? Um, so I guess like the repeatable outbound processes from Aaron Ross going, okay, you build a sales process, right.

[00:11:56] Here's where the steps would go right there, the emails and the call. So that was a big part. The hiring scorecard from mark, Roberto, right? Like, okay. Having a strong hiring scorecard and how to tie incentives to what your team actually needs and or wants and what the company wants from Kevin Gaither.

[00:12:12] That's where I built out a lot of like the training content of like. Trained like a sales playbook and it needs to be documented. Call scorecard came from Gaither and Mike Brooks and their programs. Right. So it's like, all right, let's do the things that are working. I was very early into SalesLoft as well, very early.

[00:12:29] I was at the first Rainmaker when they were just a little tech village. Right. And learning from them and, you know, Kester and, um, Porter and all of them are just like learning, like, okay, like what are other companies doing? And one of my things I give a lot of like men teasing my team advice on is I say outworking.

[00:12:46] Um, at working people actually very easy to do. Most people do not understand what hard work actually is, but out learnings, the easiest thing to do, right. Just learn it in. Most sales reps, don't read books, no salespeople. Don't go to these conferences to learn. They go to network and like, I was just learning and putting it into practice, which then allows me to mess things up, learn and optimize.

[00:13:06] So those are like core the scorecard for scoring calls, for hiring people, repeatable processes from like the Aaron Ross's of the world of like K step one, step two, step three, the email, the calls. And then I got to put my own twist on it. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Building something from nothing. It's an incredible story.

[00:13:24] I'm super curious to ask you a question, because you mentioned at SnackNation like, you know, you started investing in your brand to attract the type of people that you wanted and you couldn't pay the money that they could get at SAS companies, but you still were able to hire the talent that you wanted based on the, you know, uh, coaching and development that you offered.

[00:13:44] What, what was that, what did it look like and how did you. You know, position that, to get those people that value that on the team. So one it's when you start to pay attention to what people actually do and what we'll talk about money here in a bit. I'm sure. But like when, when you read reviews on companies, when you read reviews on great bosses, very rarely, is it ever, they paid me the most.

[00:14:09] Yeah. I think about it for a second. Like that's never what actually gets brought up. What do people talk about with their company when they. The support, the culture, the communication, the training and the development. Right? So it's paying attention to what really actually matters to people and going, okay, well, let's do that.

[00:14:26] Right? So we had a 90 day onboarding program right before it was cool. Before there was enablement, right. We had to call scorecards before people were doing it. I was leading weekly sales trainer. You could go hit up. Anyone that works for me, then this is now. Uh, go at its peak. You could go back seven years from when this was seven years ago, dude, seven years ago when I was building out this machine.

[00:14:49] We had a whiteboard room and one of our offices, we did weekly script reviews mapping on the full scripts with objection handling before gong was gone, there was execs region. We were one of the first customers with exempt vision on how to do call coaching, right? Like it was built in to what we did as a.

[00:15:07] All the time, all the time. And so that was a big focus of it. We'd go through books together. Right. And as a company, so SnackNation and human, they had something called sensei sessions done, or a sensei session where we were talking about some sort of topic that people could learn from time management, health, nutrition, mindset, right?

[00:15:27] Like all those things are just built into the org and that attracts the right type of people. Right. And that's what matters because also too, this is what people forget about when you try to hire money motivated individuals, which again, I'll dispel that myth real quick here in a second. Right? Well then we wonder why people leave so fast to make more.

[00:15:48] Like you're set. You're literally setting yourself up to have high turnover because also as an industry, only 40, 45% of people are getting to quota anyway, which means only 40 to 45% of people actually hitting their OT, which means only 40 to 45% actually making the money that they're chasing. So of course, they're going to leave.

[00:16:04] Of course, we're going to have 60% turnover because only 40% and getting the money they're looking for. Right. It's even, I think it might even be less now. It's like, It's like starting only a 30% or consistently 30% percent give or take are roughly consistently hitting quota. And man, I'm excited to dig into this because I told you, I don't know what side of the fence, but I could be convinced.

[00:16:27] Um, we're going to get into that in a minute, but it makes a lot of sense because, okay, so you're hiring money, motivated people. So why are you so surprised when they leave? Right. Especially when they're not making their money, the entire relationships built on a lie. Are you money motivated? Yeah. Money motivated.

[00:16:46] Cool. You can make 150 K here. Hell yeah. That's what I want. Their first year. W2 is 84. Yeah. You lied about their money. And when you lie about money is there. And also people forget about this. Any, anything that is dependent upon money to occur is not a relationship. It's a trend. Oh, remember that easily.

[00:17:08] Say that one more time. Just so we don't forget anything that requires money for something else to occur is not a relationship that is a transient. Period. Right. And so we, again, we wonder why there's this gap in the sales industry is like, we'll, we'll go into this right here. Okay. So common, common theme with salespeople, right.

[00:17:29] That salespeople are coin operated. Right? You've heard this theory before. It sounds like you're kind of on that side of the fence sales people are coin operated, right? Yep. Okay. Colin is where it gets fun. Do you know how a coin operated machine actually works in order to. The bag of chips out of the vending machine.

[00:17:50] Do I have to put the money in first or do I get the chip and then put the money in? Oh, you got to put the money on first. So, and sometimes it doesn't even work and you don't get the chips real quick. So that's how a coin operated machine works. Is that how we pay our salespeople or do we make them give us the chips first?

[00:18:11] And then we give them the. They gotta give us the chips. That's not coin operation, right? That's not actually how it works. Right. When truthfully for motivation and I've spent now years like studying anything that again is dependent upon is actually no longer a motivation, right? If I have to sell to get the money, the money is not actually the motivator.

[00:18:35] I have to do the thing. Versus motivation is from an internal, like either joy or fulfillment of the task at hand. Right. Motivation also people forget what motivation means. Motivation is change of behavior, change of behavior. Okay. Have you led teams gone? I actually don't know your full background. So if I walked out tomorrow and doubled commission would results double.

[00:19:01] If you walked out tomorrow and doubled commission with the results double. No. Say that again. Wait, so, um, you kinda lost me what the question is. So if I have a sales org and I, again, money motivated, right. Commissions drive behavior. If I went out and doubled commissions, do you believe results would double?

[00:19:25] Yeah, absolutely not. You can test it. I have a couple of commissions tripled. It doesn't change the actual behavior of the majority. And this is where people get shifted. I'm trying, I'm tracking with you. May it change your behavior? Maybe you maybe temporarily you might be part of the 7% that are technically monument.

[00:19:51] Right. Less than 7% of people are actually money motivated, meaning they do anything they can to make more money. How many people in your life do you actually know that will do anything they can to make more money? Right. If you think of any sales team that you've worked on, that's not how most people work on and, and people that are, let's just say that 7% have a really hard time leading people, right?

[00:20:16] Because they think everybody should think and act the way that they do. And here we go. Okay. Where do most leaders come from? Top? Performing reps are top performing reps. Oftentimes money motivated. Yes they are. So then we wonder why this entire industry has been built on this idea of a carrot and stick mindset because the leaders were money motivated.

[00:20:39] So they create comp plans that make sense for them. But back to what we were saying before, and this is something I constantly ask myself in all walks of life. I, I w. Is it working if only 35% of people are hitting their goal in sales with a compensation structure that's supposedly designed to drive the behaviors to get to their goal.

[00:21:05] Is it working clearly? Not clearly not. We're afraid to answer it, but then people are like, oh, well then they won't do their jobs. Cool. Let's talk about this part. What other role pays like this? Do we pay programmers 50% of their income for delivering clean code? Nope. 50% of income. Okay. So we don't deal with the programs.

[00:21:29] What about, what about marketing? Do we pay marketing 50%? We, we, we hold back 50% of their income based upon the Google app. Nope. Oh, okay. All right. How about doctors? Right. Doctors or lawyers, but what about shoot? What about teachers? See us nurses, garbage men. Nothing else does. And also to funny enough, we love to talk to like sales, like athletes, same bullshit there.

[00:21:58] Right? The athlete actually gets a contract for performance. Here's $20 million to go do the thing that you're supposed to do not we'll give you $20 million at the end of the year. Right. So this is a lot of this, by the way, this isn't me just ranting on like these, these are studies. These are facts.

[00:22:17] People actually have proven this money actually decreases creativity and problem solving for cognitive tasks. When you put a monetary value on a cognitive task, creativity, and problem solving goes down, that stresses people out, stresses people out, right? I've been in this industry now for 16 years. That means for 16 years calling, I have woken up and not know what I'm going to make.

[00:22:39] And we wonder why also we don't get great talent always into this world. We are a ragtag bunch of misfits. Cause we're the only ones willing to take that risk. So it's not working. It doesn't motivate, it does not change behavior to the way that we think that it could. Right. So what happens is the last part I'll touch on or we can go back and forth, right?

[00:22:59] So we said all the other people are paid to do their job and they seem to do it. Do we truly believe sales people are. That they're not because here's where people always freak out. If you're a top performer column, you're a top performer because you're a top performer and you, you, you were going to do that in any way and real quick, before someone jumps through the screen and tries to strangle me, I'm not a Cami.

[00:23:24] I'm not saying that I won't overpay for over performance. That's not what I'm saying. Right. If you're crushing it, I'm still going to pay you more. But I believe more and more salespeople would gladly take a 100 K guaranteed job and go do. Then the hundred and 35 K 60 40 split with the carrot dangled over it.

[00:23:43] And I also believe I could have higher expectations for people because I'm paying you to do your job the moment again, back to the transaction. If you have to do your job to get paid, now, things feel optional, right? No, hang on. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it because you're not paying me.

[00:24:00] Right. Right. And then I get comfortable with just making what I'm going to make because right. That's more and more people within this. Again, this is how we look at things. Yes. We love upside, but we make decisions on downside and you know exactly what I mean by that. We love to think about the upside, but we make decisions on the downside.

[00:24:19] What is the worst case scenario? So I'm looking at that base. Yup. All right. Like, yeah. I want to make it a hundred times, but like, will I be okay? With this drive, like just survive on this. Okay. Like, I'll be all right here. Like, so my dream sales org, my dream sales org is I would love to complex to complex.

[00:24:41] One is 80, 90% base. Here's your job? Go. Do it. Pay you this. The other one is a 50 50. You have that type of personality and that type of individual yet you can make more on that plan than on the other plan, but then you get to choose. Then you get to choose. I could, I can guarantee this. And one day I'll be able to do this.

[00:25:05] I don't have a product to be my own company. Cause finance will never agree to this ever, like, I'll do this. I will be able to out recruit everybody. Everybody I'll be able to out recruit and do. What do you think my retention will look like? Are you really going to resist? Somewhere else, you know, you're going to make this much with me for doing your job, or you're going to go risk it and come backwards on that base people don't like to go backwards on basis.

[00:25:29] You know that too. So I can out recruit everybody in the industry, if that was an option. And there's companies starting to do this man, and it works. I've gotten to test it. Once I had a team of LDRs team led, I was like lead development reps. Their pay was 55 K a year. And guess what I did painting. And guess what they did their job, right?

[00:25:53] Like comp plans for most companies are lazy management. They think the comp plan will drive the behavior. It won't, and it, it doesn't. And I've tested enough times now to see that it truly does not incentives can drive some change, but not the day-to-day actions and just burns people. Um, wow. There's a lot.

[00:26:14] There's a lot there. I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion with most and you, you much CA you must catch some pretty, some pretty good shit for it here and there. I do. I do, but this is, what's hilarious about it. No one can defend it. You can not like it, but you can't defend it. What's the counterpoint to what I think.

[00:26:35] What's the count. You, you, you made a good case. I would say, I would say I'm a much, um, a much more of a believer than, than when we, you know, before we hit record, we were talking about, and I was like, oh, it's going to be interesting. It's going to be an interesting topic. Um, give me a counter point that says commissions are actually working and driving the behaviors that we're looking for.

[00:26:56] I like the answer's. No, and, and, and, but I like the. Perfect. Scenario of two options. Like, Hey, maybe you are that weird, crazy money motivated person because they do exist. But they're far and few between, I think I'm one of them. I would take a commission only sales job any day of the week. Yeah. So what's funny about that.

[00:27:22] I, and this will be fun cause you know, you better than you, but I believe you're a high performer. I don't know that you're actually money motivated because if you're truly money motivated, it's really hard to start to. 'cause that's a risk, but I also like a challenge. I also like a challenge now we're talking.

[00:27:40] Right. So, which actually drives you the challenge, the challenge for sure. But also I grew up with nothing, right? So I perform well under pressure. I perform better when my back's up against the wall and I have to perform. That's what drives me and maybe it's not necessarily the money, it's the challenge.

[00:28:00] And it's the journey. Right? And that like, and that's what allows you to start your own thing because the money's on the upside, the money's in the future. I'm money motivated individual does not wait for money in the future. They make it now. Right. And so that, like, I think he fall into that bucket of like chips on shoulders.

[00:28:19] You got a chip on your shoulder, you're a high performer. You're a hard worker. You're sharp. You do that shit. Cause that's who you are. Money is the outcome from it. I know money motivated people. I know them. Right. And either, either they're already making a lot of money or they're in. Yeah, right. And they make that money now.

[00:28:37] Right. They make it now. And that's what they do. So like that that's where, like, if we can't provide a counterpoint of something working, then we have to be willing to admit that it's an emotional attachment, not a logical attachment. There's something wrong there. And having that option for people, I think changes the entire scope because I've met more one.

[00:28:57] I think we get better people into sales, more people into sales, right. They stay in sales longer. And then yeah, you got those crazy people that want to take that risk on themselves. Fuck. Yeah, go for it, dude. Do it. But that's not the majority. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, to kind of put a bow on this topic, right.

[00:29:16] It goes back to what you said earlier, where, you know, people are signing up for that sales job on a lie. You know, that they're gonna make this. And in a lot of things, They barely scratch half 50% of what they're promised. Right. They, they don't get there. And that, that again is like, there's this idea that the money is going to drive the right behavior.

[00:29:43] And if we have to be willing to admit that it's not, it's, it's not driving the behaviors. If money motivated, I'd never have to talk to my team about that. If money motivated, I would never have to talk to my team about role-plays because I know they make them better. They do it. I would never like that's what money would motivate to a certain point.

[00:30:01] If money truly motivated. I wouldn't need managers. I wouldn't need managers. If money motivated, I just need coaches. You would do the right thing every single day, because it would make you more money, which, which is the truth, but it doesn't work. Right. So, and, and to some extent you've sorta tested this, right, because.

[00:30:22] Recruited people that valued other things, not the money and the best comp plan I truly have I've ever had was the first comp plans I ever made. And I have tested Cod dude. I've tested so many comp plans in my career now. And this is what people like. Oh, well it does change things. It does change certain behaviors, but it doesn't change it tanks.

[00:30:47] Right. You can change a comp plan to drive, like, okay, you want more upsells or you want more annual so that you can gain that. But in terms of total, like attainment, it doesn't the comp plan that I had early on at SnackNation. And I would do this again, actually recommend companies to do this was based off recurring revenue.

[00:31:07] Right? You got a percentage of your recurring revenue and the percentage you got was determined by your quota to. And what that did is first of all, short-term you, weren't making a lot of money. You didn't have a lot of recurring revenue. So again, I didn't have money motivated people in those seats because you weren't making a lot yet you had your base and you had, you know, nothing, but it got you thinking long-term because it stacked that incentivized you around churn to cause your higher.

[00:31:34] If you're closing bad deals, they all leave. I can tell you to the dollar where your cat, if you've got 10% monthly, This is where your cat, you're never going to really make more than that because eventually you're going to have more leaving, but then every dollar in made it and funny enough, con it became like a secondary.

[00:31:53] You knew what you were walking into every single month and guess what? Those people still showed up and did their job. And that my top performers stayed my top performance of the last day. I still like I'll call them out by name Jenny Eisenberg, Diana Delatorre. I still remember them Jordan Colon last days of the month, already way past their quota and still bringing in deals because that got them a higher percentage of their total base.

[00:32:18] Right? Like that, that type of plan to me also shows. When people know they're going to make money. They're also more likely to do the right things when you're worried about money when you're stressed over money. Right. Cause also too last point, you know, I can go on this all fucking day. Last point buyers don't trust us.

[00:32:37] You know why they don't trust us because we're paid to say anything. Right. We joke about commission breasts, but then we do nothing about it. We tell reps don't have commission breath, but then force them to have commission rep. Right. They're paid commission and like, you know, it's bad when there's certain industries that will say our salespeople are non-commissioned as a competitive advantage.

[00:33:01] Think about that. Who would you rather deal with a sales rep meeting? Commissioner sales rep, not sales rep.

[00:33:09] Just just, uh, naturally I'm going to think. Well, they're going to be more honest because I mean, I think, and I don't know this for sure, but I think like, you know, if you'd go back to like car sales, right? Like that's always, the sleazy car salesman is like the, you know, what people think about when they think of salespeople were like Tesla, they don't make.

[00:33:31] And it's a good experience. They just go there and they teach you and help you solve your problem, teach you everything about the car. Take you, let you take it out and that's it. Yeah. And, and that's, that's how it can be. Right. And I do believe also from a leadership perspective, I actually do believe this allows me to hold the line a little bit tighter.

[00:33:50] I'm paying you 125 K to do. So do this, that 125%, that 125 K is not dependent upon you getting there, do these things. Cause then also too, I think this allows us to move people out also faster. If I look I'm paying you to go do this, we're not doing this. So fix these things or cause what is not a fit.

[00:34:15] Right? What other job could you also consistently be significantly below and keep your job? No way nowhere, but we allow in sales because the punishment is they're not making commission. Right. Yeah, you got me over to the dark side. Now, Katie, you know, there's ways to do this man. There's ways to do it. And this is one of my leadership mottoes.

[00:34:39] One of my like problem solving mottoes is consider the opposite. Consider the opposite. Cause I have man, I have literally tripled commissions before and seen less than a 10% lift in results. I have doubled, I have spiffed heavily. I have changed comp plans left and right. Eventually we have to say. This isn't driving the behavior.

[00:35:01] I do think I could buy. I think if I walked out to my teams tomorrow, I said, okay, your OTE under the old plan was 140. I'm going to pay you 120 K. And as long as you're above 80% of your. You're good. You get a pass 105%. Bam. There's spiffs. There's bonuses, all that. Yeah. I bet you performance goes up. I can, I would bet all sorts of money.

[00:35:26] And if I walked down and said, Hey, I'm actually paying you to do your job because I'm trusting you now to do your job. Just like every other industry trusts their people to do this. That's the key right there. Right? Is they feel like they owe it to you because he's like, Hey, there, he he's, they're trusting me that I'm going to do a good job.

[00:35:46] So now I got to do a good job, right? They're not telling you in an over my head, like, Hey, if you don't do a good job, you're going to earn shit money. And if you do good job, you know, then you get paid more. Weird. So people can come after me all they want. It's fine. I don't care. Where should we tell?

[00:36:04] Everybody's send the hate mail. If they didn't like this unpopular message where I get all my emails, send it to me on LinkedIn. And I'll laugh as I sit on a bourbon that you thought made any way you could negatively impact my mindset or thought process here. Like that's what cracks me up with like link.

[00:36:19] Like you get some like snotty shit and it's like, how, how miserable of a person do you need to be? To get joy out of trying to take me down. Like I laugh at that shit, so don't come at me there, but anyone listening, here's what I want. Come at me. But defendant defend, defend your angle. Don't just disagree with mine.

[00:36:40] Defend your angle and I'm all for it. I'm all I'm ready to do. Man, this was fun. Katy tell people where they can connect with you. Any final thoughts, uh, all that good stuff, anything we're going to drop in the show notes for them? Sure. So, I mean, I have my own podcast as well. Live better, sell better. Um, really love to go into like tactics and things of that nature, but also cover some of the human element side of things.

[00:37:04] I think people can pick up on, like I'm talking about humans, right? The person in sales person is also why I believe paying people more. Upfront it's better for the person. Right? And then I do believe that leads to better sales. So live better, sell better is the podcast. I'm a Patrion inside sales excellence, where I do like monthly, you know, hour long trainings, like not little snippets, like hour long trainings on discovery, sales, leadership, all that kind of fun stuff.

[00:37:29] And you can follow me on LinkedIn. I am at that stupid. Limit at this point, I've kind of purged my connection so many times. So I follow if I can't accept connections right now, but that'd be the best place to awesome. We'll drop the Patrion link there. We'll drop the podcast link. We'll drop your LinkedIn all in the show notes for everybody.

[00:37:47] So it's easy for them to find. Thanks so much for coming on. If you enjoyed today's episode, please write us a review, share the show with your friends. It really does help us out. And we're always listening for your feedback. Uh, you can go over to sales transformation. FM and drop us a voice DM, and we will get back to you.

[00:38:03] Hey, you stuck around that tells me you're serious about your own sales transformation. If you're tired of doing things the old way and want to get started in your journey with other people on the same path, head over to sales,, and crush your numbers on your leaderboard. Yeah. It's free sales

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