Sales Hustle is now Sales Transformation
Sept. 8, 2021

#146 S2 Episode 15 - Research Scientist to Cerebral Selling Enthusiast with David Priemer

On this episode of the Sales Transformation Podcast with Collin Mitchell, he is joined by David Priemer, founder and chief sales scientist of Cerebral Selling, and a lecturer of Sales Leadership at Smith School of Business.

David comes to the show bringing a new perspective on how to approach sales in terms of being firm of what you believe. Not only that, being as true to yourself and your prospects and clients in terms of how you feel about doing things that you might feel uncomfortable about for the sake of selling.


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HIGHLIGHTS

01:35 The how, when, and why David started his journey and progression in sales

04:00 The "Cobra Kai Paradox" based on David's first chapter of his book

08:35 Sales is all just about helping

14:20 How to manifest passion and conviction that is "regular"

19:26 Being prescriptive or sometimes called the "challenger method"

23:30 How to connect with David

QUOTES

04:02 "The way we learn how to do sales is from our sensei, right? Whoever our manager was is a lot of 'here's what I do, here's what you should do.'"

06:00 "Sales is so different than it was 10, 20 years ago because buying is so different. But the average age of a seller is also decreasing. Some people know that if you're out there hiring a manager and you know the average age of a sales person you're getting less experience for the money nowadays."

10:11 "Leading with what you believe, or leading with feelings. So rather than leading with the product"

13:58 "With all due respect, most of us, especially in B2B tech, we do like normal things. We sell CRM, we sell middleware, we sell security software, we're not curing cancer. Or we're not feeding starving children in third-world countries."

19:09 "The impression that you leave, the experience that you give people, whether you work with them and whether you don't, whether you stop working with them, it really matters."

23:05 "People can tell if you're being authentic, people can tell if you're lying, people can tell if you're being prescriptive, people can tell if you believe in what you're selling or not."

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Transcript

[00:00:00] In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell, and this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.

[00:00:24] All right, welcome to another episode of sales transformation today. I've got an awesome guest for you as always. I'm going to be talking with David premier. He's the founder. Chief sales scientist over at cerebral selling. And we're going to dig into his experience in his own sales transformation and pull as many learning lessons out of there as possible for all of you sellers tuning in today.

[00:00:46] David, welcome to sales transform. Oh, thanks Colin. Thanks for having me, like you say, chief sales, scientist, like you've never heard that title before. I don't know. It's a, it's a, it's a little tongue tied me a little. Um, but I think [00:00:59] honestly, that's what caught my attention. I think if I remember correctly, it's been a little while.

[00:01:03] Um, but I think I saw a video or something that you may be put on LinkedIn that was pretty unique and different than a lot of this stuff that pops up in my feed. And I saw that title and I said, we definitely need the chief sales scientist on the sales transformation show. Very good. Well, it's good to know that something I made up, you know, in the middle of the night, one night when I needed to update my profile, uh, yeah.

[00:01:24] So interesting to so many people. So that's great. Definitely caught my attention. Uh, you know, it's harder and harder to stand out these days. So you definitely did that in my feed. So here we are. I'm excited to, uh, have you on all the way from Toronto joining us and giving us a little bit of your, your experience and your story.

[00:01:43] And I think that there's going to be a ton that we can learn there and we'll see where it goes. Yeah. Looking forward. So let's just jump right in, uh, start from the beginning. Like, did you, you know, was sales your fallback plan? Did you plan to get into sales? How the [00:01:58] heck did you get into sales and why are you still in, in sales?

[00:02:01] The funny thing is like no one ever really plans to get into sales. Like, I don't know if it's a fallback position. You know, we just don't learn it in school and it's not something your guidance counselor probably tells you, Hey, you know what? And in the, I say that in the best and worst possible way, sales is such an accessible profession.

[00:02:16] And yet there's no governing body. It's not like medicine or accounting or anything like that. Right. So everyone has a story, but how they got into sales and I am no different. I started my sales career over, well, I'd say my career over 20 years. It was actually a research scientist before, before I accidentally transitioned into sales as a solutions consultant or a solution engineer.

[00:02:36] For those of you out there, uh, who know, uh, ended up joining a startup, uh, at the turn of the.com boom, like around 99, 2000. When, you know, just getting into tech was cool and gone and sales max. Uh, never looked back that that first company was an awesome company. We ended up, um, uh, growing the company to a a hundred million dollar business and 700 people.

[00:02:56] We [00:02:57] IPO, like we had the whole experience got acquired and, uh, just, just caught the sales bug after that. Oh yeah. It sounds like you were hooked after that experience. Yeah, well, so my background was actually can science and engineering. When I say research scientists, I wasn't involved in any kind of like psychology or anything like that, but it was science and engineering.

[00:03:14] And, you know, I kind of applied that to some extent selling, right. Cause when you think about, you know, even when it comes to, you know, the, the, the systems of, let's say how we interact with clients, what we say, what we do, the slides, we show the narrative, how we structure emails, like in a way it's art.

[00:03:29] And I agree it's art, but there's a lot of science. There's a certain amount of repeatability. Um, to, if there's certain systems that if we break down and understand we can get better at this thing. So that's the thing I love to do. Um, I think there, I don't think there's as many people as I'd like to think that.

[00:03:46] View sales are, look at the science and view that more as an art. Would you agree or disagree with that? I agree. 100%. In fact, like the first chapter of my book. So I'm, you know, I [00:03:56] don't want to age myself. I'm exactly 46 years old for it, maybe 46 and a quarter. So when I was a nine in 1984, The movie, the karate kid.

[00:04:04] K I do you know that you remember the karate kid? I do, yes. Okay. So people know now there's like the Cobra Kai show and everything. So, you know, the way I kind of think about sales, it's very much like the Cobra, Kai. And in the first chapter of my book, I call it the Cobra, Kai paradox. And this idea that the way we learn how to do sales sales is from our center.

[00:04:22] Right. Whoever our manager was, it was a lot of like, here's what I did, here's what you should do. And what happens is because there's not a lot of rigor or scientific principles that had applied to like that kind of just passing them from our sensei. We just tend to kind of do what we're told and we learn that way.

[00:04:39] And so when we grow up to be our kind of fully formed sales self, we end up being in that, if you think back to like the corporate Kai movie or the Cobra, Kai, and the karate kid movie, you have these kids who learn karate from. A jerk, right. Turned out to then be [00:04:55] jerks and bullies, but they're not bad kids.

[00:04:59] Like there's no kids that are bad, they just learn bad things. And so the same thing in sales, right? Like, because we just get information, tactics passed down to us from our sensei. Some of us grew up to be Cobra Kai, and some of us, you know, grew up to be the Miyagi dojo. Right. So, uh, yeah, it's, it's not something that's regulated and that's kinda how we end up in the situation.

[00:05:18] We are in that right now. I know exactly what you're talking about from firsthand experience. Um, you know, when I got my first sales job at the age of 22, uh, I learned a lot of the bad habits in sales that everybody hates and they got me so far. And then I had to unlearn all of those things. Absolutely.

[00:05:43] Well, the, the interesting thing about sales tactics in general is that they're not all categorically effective or ineffective, right? It's not like I can tell you, you know, Colin do this thing and it's going to work a hundred percent of the [00:05:54] time. Like that's not the, my sales works. So even those old school tactics that you kind of feel gross doing maybe, and that customers hate.

[00:06:01] Work some percentage of the time with some percentage of customers. Right? So I agree with sales tactics is to be able to have this toolbox of, you know, utilities that you kind of pull out that, that number one, give you a high percentage chances, chance of success. But number two, and this is really important, especially now because sales sales is so different than it was 10, 20 years ago, because buying is so different, but the average age of a seller.

[00:06:26] Is also decreasing, right? Some people know that if you're out there, you're a hiring manager. Do you know that, like the average age of a sales person, you're getting less experienced for the money nowadays and I'm, by the way, I love young, enthusiastic salespeople. Right. And, but the prop, the problem is, is that oftentimes you get young, enthusiastic salespeople get into the profession and the things that we ask them to do you make them feel a little gross?

[00:06:49] I feel like, give me an example. Like even just simple things like, you know, I [00:06:53] need you to make 50 calls. Right. And they're thinking themselves, I don't, I don't even think I make 50 calls like this year to people like I don't, I don't use . I can send 50 text messages. How you put an Instagram story together.

[00:07:06] Like, no, one's. But again on the phone with someone and like I'm saying, it's not this thing work. Yeah. So like, and by the way, you know, we all have this experience of getting called by telemarketers and getting blasted and getting interrupted all the time. Yeah. So I don't want to do that to people.

[00:07:22] That's not, that's not what I want to do. Right. And so I have this like emotional conflict, so that's. Innocent example, but then there's other more contentious examples. Like, you know, when I say, Hey, call them when you get the customer on the phone at the end of the month, ask them if there's any reason why they don't think they can move forward this month.

[00:07:40] Right. Like, and now I'm like, oh, and I feel like I'm putting pressure on this customer. And I don't really like. And so I'm just scared. I don't want to know the answer to that question. I love to live in ignorance. Listen, just forecast [00:07:52] this thing. And can we just tell, call it today? So yeah, there's lots of things that, you know, just that people have this internal, emotional conflict about, about selling even still, you know, I know we're talking to a lot.

[00:08:01] Yeah. Bonafide sellers out there, but I work with a lot of customer success account management teams. I actually, I wrote an article called how to help, uh, how to sell if you hate selling, because they work with so many of these teams to say, look, I love to help people, you know, and I feel good when I do it, but I got into account management or customer success.

[00:08:20] So I wouldn't have to sell, I didn't want to take the quota. And now my company saying, oh, you know, call, we need you to like, go up, sell this customer. I'm like, I feel like not so good about that. Right? So like, I want to help, but I hate this thought of selling. How can I do it in a way that aligns ethically and morally with the way I feel.

[00:08:40] And, and what are some tips? What can people do if they're, you know, in that place, in that mindset? Let me look. There's lots of things. I think classically people think about sales as just helping, like I'm there [00:08:51] to help someone. And it's funny, like going back, you know, thinking over the years and I, you know, I was mentioning earlier, like I used to work at Salesforce, so Salesforce acquired my third startup.

[00:08:58] I was there for five awesome years. I love the Salesforce. I love the team. But it was kind of really interesting to see, you know, at the end of the month, into the quarter, like these high pressure, you know, kind of like selling periods and there's, there's all sorts of products and services that we can sell our customers.

[00:09:13] We were talking about it. You know, it was funny when I had been a Salesforce customer a few times before, and then they acquired my company and I'm on the executive team of this company. They have. And I attend their first. Um, they used to call it cloud forest, which was like Dreamforce, but just in specific cities.

[00:09:29] And I remember going to the first cloud force in San Francisco, which was 17,000 people in 2012. Like we should all have these kinds of conferences for us. And I remember sitting there and watching all the demos and all of, kind of the slick presentations then thinking about. We do this stuff. Like, I didn't know we did like marketing and customer success and like all these other, you know, products and services.

[00:09:49] And so, [00:09:50] you know, when, when we think about, um, customer success or sales, there's all sorts of products. We can sell our customers. And if we think about just helping them, right? Not, I'm not selling you. If I think about it as an upsell opportunity, then I kind of start to get like emotionally compromised.

[00:10:05] But I think about, Hey look, sometimes the answer at the end of the day. Is for you to buy more stuff from us to be more successful, then, then helping is the name of the game. But also, I mean, there's lots of things that we can do to kind of get in that right mindset. One of the tactics I actually talk about in my channel and by the way, you know, I'm sure you'll get all the coordinates.

[00:10:22] I get tons of stuff away for free. So you don't have to buy anything or register for anything to get this stuff. One of the things they talk about is this concept of leading with what you believe or leading with feelings. So rather than. The product talk about, you know, for example, hanging out calling, I think we were talking about this for like at cerebral selling.

[00:10:39] If you say like, well, what do I do? I'd say, you know what? Call, I love sales. Like sales is the best profession in the world, but I realize people love to buy stuff and they hate talking to [00:10:49] salespeople. I believe if you want to be successful. In the future of sales, like you need to use tactics that are rooted in science and empathy that don't make you feel gross that are super effective because they're rooted in the way that people actually buy in.

[00:11:02] And all of that little narrative that I just, you know, end scene. Right. I didn't tell you what. I didn't tell you, I trained sales people. Didn't tell you wrote a book, I'm ready to buy something, ready to buy something. This sounds really interesting. Tell me more, what is this? Right. And that's, that's the objective.

[00:11:18] And so again, how to sell, if you hate selling that's that's one of the ways you can do it. Yeah. Yeah. How often? I mean, it's kind of an interesting concept because. People who sell, who hate selling. It's kind of like, well, why are you in sales? Right. Uh, and maybe they're just kind of ignorant and don't really know what they're signing up for.

[00:11:41] Like, Hey, this is looked like the best place to work, or is it only job that I could find or what I planned on doing didn't work out and here I am. [00:11:48] Um, but sometimes those people end up being the best sellers because they genuinely do want to just help people. They're not. Quick to jump into some of those, you know, sleazy sales tactics that most people, um, sort of characterize salespeople by.

[00:12:05] Uh, and they're genuinely curious people. It's true. Well, you know, it's funny, like one of the, even if you have all those ingredients, so generally I love it. Like, you're generally curious. You love to help you have high conviction around the things that you're passionate about. Like, if I asked you to call, like, what's something that you're passionate about, or what's something you spend your hard-earned money on that another person would look at it and say, That's ridiculous.

[00:12:28] I don't want, what would that be for you? Ah, I don't know. I'm not a big spender man. So I mean, most of my money goes to trips with the family or, um, no, look, I got three kids. I got three kids and one on the way. So we're, we're socking away for college [00:12:47] now. Oh man. That's just look, I, I have three kids. I don't think I have one on the way.

[00:12:52] So fingers crossed, but no, like I, you know, I totally hear you. I invest in experiences. Right. Like, cause that's at the end of the day. And I think for most of us, what we've missed during the pandemic is just that those experiences with the family, like it's been a lot of work and that kind of stuff. And so I'm willing to invest in, in those experiences.

[00:13:10] Now someone else might say, well, okay, I want to go to this particular place on this kind of vacation with my family. And you might look at that column, you might, and you might say, you know what? Like, I love spending time with my family, but I don't need to do the thing that David's doing. Like I would rather just go on a road trip and do this other thing.

[00:13:27] So again, you know, it's, it's all about kind of, you know, you spend money on the things that you're passionate about that are discretionary, that you find value in. Right? And so this idea that. If we can find that emotional alignment with our customer by, uh, manifesting those passionate [00:13:46] feelings we can sell without ever having to feel gross.

[00:13:49] Like if I want an awesome vacation or not, and you had an awesome family experience, I said, you know, Colin, I got kids, you got kids, where should I go? You know, like, oh, David, do you want to have the best family experience? Here's what you need. Go to this place and you would manifest this naturally normal conviction and it wouldn't feel like you're trying to sell me anything.

[00:14:06] But the problem is that, you know, especially in B2B technology. Okay. And I'm going to say, I'm going to pull a Ricky, Ricky, Bobby here and say with all due respect. Okay. With all due respect, most of us, especially in B2B tech. We do like normal things. Okay. Like you sell a CRM, you sell like middleware, you sell security software.

[00:14:23] You'd like, we're not curing cancer or we're not feeding starving children in third world countries. Maybe some of us are, but most of us are doing regular. I train salespeople. Can we do regular things to them? The question is, okay, well, how do we then manifest this passion and conviction around something that is like, Right.

[00:14:44] And [00:14:45] the way to not do it is through like functions and features and what's new in version three dot O no one gives a shit about what's new in version three dot. Oh, okay. No, but they do care about like your mission. They do care about your values. They do care about why you do and pulling back the Simon Sinek, start with why they do care about why you do what you do.

[00:15:02] They care why you bet you're passionate about it and what you believe. Right. So leading with that kind of stuff can help you sell, right. Even if the idea of being salesy. Something you're completely comfortable with and what they care about more than anything is the experience with you. And if your experiences making them feel horrible, it doesn't matter if you do have the best product, they're not going to buy it.

[00:15:27] I'll tell you something. So I run a little sales, leadership meetup, and, uh, one of the conversations that we were having in the sales leadership group was about I won't name the technology group nor the players, but it was a pain. Sales technology in which there are only like a few main players [00:15:44] in the space.

[00:15:45] And so one of the rap, one of the VPs of sales was saying the other wonders to the group, what do you use for this kind of technology? And the, and the, and the sales leader says, oh, we'll use this. And so what anyone else uses? Do you get, what about the competitor? Do you, does anyone ever talk to the competitor before?

[00:16:00] And one of the VPs pipes up. Oh, my gosh, we had the worst experience with that vendor. And this is one of the market leading vendors. Like we had the worst experience with that vendor and it even went so far as to name the rep and one of the other VPs piped up and said, oh, you had that rep too. Oh my gosh, they are the worst.

[00:16:16] Right. And all of these things, and this was like bouncing around the sales leadership group. All of these things transcend. What the product actually does. Right. I actually talk about in my book, the experiences, the product as a dad, you probably know like you're out there in California. You go to Disneyland.

[00:16:33] Every now and then maybe I know, right? Yeah. Like Disney is one, are these companies that fully understands that the experiences, the product, it's not the, it's not the rides. It's not [00:16:43] the food that you get. It's the whole experience. And so in sales, it's exactly the same thing. If you are kind empathetic, helpful, that's part of the experience and that experience will transcend the features and functions of your product and make a customer want to work.

[00:16:56] Yeah. Yeah. So how can, what can some reps do to sort of level up the experience and the interactions with their customers, with their prospects in pre-sale post-sale all of it. Yeah. Well look, part of it is just to be, it's funny, you know, I, I talk about this. Uh, an experienced personal trainer wants to let you think about what do you need to be, to be a really good personal trainer.

[00:17:17] And you think about someone who's the first glance. Who's like really good at exercising and knows all the exercises and can put together a plan for you and all that kind of stuff. But this personal trainer, he said like, no, like 90% of success in personal training is showing up on time. Being organized, like being considerate, following up like the regular things.

[00:17:36] Right. Having a plan, having a plan. Yeah. Experience showing up to a trainer and they're like, [00:17:42] okay, here's what we're going to do today. And I've experienced you show up to the train and they're like, what do you feel like doing? I don't know. That's what I'm paying you. That's right. Well, exactly right. And so this idea is in sales, it's the same thing.

[00:17:53] B being punctual, being organized, taking good notes, showing the customer that you're listening, acting their best interest, talking like a normal human being, not using crazy buzzwords that make you sound quote, unquote salesy taking the pressure off them. Feel like they need to buy something from you.

[00:18:13] Cause what happens is when that pressure builds up, then all of a sudden they recoil and they go into like, you know, defense mode and that's when they ghost you. Right? Like you actually want to be in a position where even if the customer doesn't want to buy from you, they feel okay, like telling you, Hey, look at that.

[00:18:27] You know, calling you've been great, but I, you know, I, I don't want to buy from me right now, but my gosh, you know, this has been a great sales experience. So part of what you can do to create that great sales experience is just the basics. Right. Just be cute. Yeah. [00:18:41] Yeah. I love that. You didn't say be more human because a lot of people are talking about being more human.

[00:18:45] How the heck do you be more human? Um, but yeah, there's a lot of these simple things matter. And just to kind of add to some of those things that you mentioned, David, um, you know, is even just challenge the thinking a little bit, you know, and make them think about something they hadn't considered. Or maybe even this, maybe tell them you're not the best option if you're not.

[00:19:02] Absolutely. Um, because. Because just back to that story of, of, of that sales leader meetup, right? Because that particular rep gave a bad experience to people in that group. There's a good chance. The rest of those people in that group who could be potential buyers now probably won't be right. So, you know, the impression that you leave the experience that give people, whether you work with them, whether you don't, whether you work together and stop working together, it really matters.

[00:19:34] Absolutely. And, uh, Colin, I love what you said about, um, making strong recommendations. Sometimes people [00:19:40] refer to this as kind of the challenger mentality, but also like being prescriptive because, you know, to your point about the, the, uh, the personal trainer, like, I don't know what exercises are supposed to do.

[00:19:48] I don't know what the form is supposed to look like, like that. That's why I'm looking at you. The problem is, especially in sales, customers come to us looking for insight, but they don't want to give us the power by saying call and tell me what I should do. Right. Cause then they're invited. You know, to be sold.

[00:20:03] And so one of the things I talk about again in my book, but I get, I have ton of blogs on my blog about this for free is I talk about the city of like, how can we be prescriptive and lead the customer through the process, help them evaluate our product, help them determine whether it's even right for them, even the micro steps, like what should a next.

[00:20:21] Be a good next step after our initial discovery, what should that be calling? Because the more prescriptive we can be lead the customer through the process, the better it's going to be. I'll tell you this very, very quick story. I was at an offsite back at Salesforce. We went to this restaurant and it was kind of this nicest restaurant at a [00:20:39] golf club where they only had maybe eight things on the menu.

[00:20:41] We go around the table and everyone like orders. The thing that they want off the menu. And then it comes to me and I don't know. Like to just order. I was like to take the recommendation, cause I don't want to be the guy that orders the thing that, you know, no one else, no one else has ever ordered in the history of the restaurant.

[00:20:55] So I asked the server, I say, you know, so what, what, I'm looking at this, I'm looking at that, like, what do you recommend the Tenderloin on 10? One of the many, this looks pretty. Yeah. W w is it good? And he, he puts down his pad and he looks at me with this very serious, you know, look and he's like, oh sir, it's the best thing on the menu.

[00:21:15] And then he goes into detail about what it is, what it is. I'm like, all right, I'm having that end six out of the eight people at the, at the table, change their orders to that. So then I had this little epiphany, I'm like, oh my gosh, like this, the power of a prescription and conviction. I go back to Salesforce and I start running a report and I say, show me the reps this year.

[00:21:37] That have [00:21:38] generated the most pipeline, just the reps and an order in terms of the most pipeline. As I'm looking down the list from the top reps to the bottom, I'm not even caring about tenure or anything. I'm just, who are these reps? These are the reps. As I look at the top of the list, these are the reps that had the most.

[00:21:52] Conviction. They were willing to make strong recommendations. They were willing to be prescriptive. They were willing, they had full respect for their own time and they were willing to tell the customer, if this is not a good fit for you, just tell me no. Right. And those reps had the most pipeline and some of them.

[00:22:07] We're tenured reps who had been there for awhile, but some of them were new as well. It's a personality trait to be able to, to act with that kind of conviction and be prescriptive, super powerful. Wow. Yeah. And, uh, uh, I love that example that you gave there, how everybody changed their order, because it's always interesting when you ask for a recommendation and, and, uh, You know that they just, you know, you'd say, Hey, I'm thinking about getting this or that.

[00:22:34] And they just go with the one that they know is more [00:22:37] well, I mean, but look, even if it is more expensive, they could wrap it up in an amazing story that can say, Hey, look, this is good. Like you, and you can tell it's funny, like human beings are perceptive when I say like, so Colin, like let's say it was a, you know, like, oh Colin, how was your weekend?

[00:22:52] And you're like, oh, you know, it was good. I can kind of tell your line a little bit, like, there's something that like, how was your quarter? And you're like, oh, this, you know, it was good. You know, like I can tell there's something there. So when I ask you, like, for your recommendation, like what's, what do you think about this product?

[00:23:06] And you kind of give me like, like, what do you want to order off the menu? Like has the past, oh, good. Like, okay. I can tell it's not your favorite. Yeah. Like what's your favorite, right? And then when you actually manifest that conviction, there's a authenticity to it that people can tell. People can tell if you're being authentic, people can tell if you're lying.

[00:23:26] People, people can tell if you're, if you're being prescriptive, people can tell if you believe in what you're selling, right. Yeah. Yeah, that, that, that's [00:23:36] a, that's a great place to wrap this up. David, thanks so much for coming on today. Tons of nuggets in this episode. So if you're listening, you might want to give it a second.

[00:23:45] Listen, uh, David, where can people find you connect with you, get into your world, get some more of all these free things you've mentioned you give away, um, which I'm sure people here would be keen to get their hands. Yeah, my pleasure. So, uh, you can check out my website, which is cerebral selling to all one word, cerebral selling.com.

[00:24:04] Uh, you'll see the blog, you'll see links to all my stuff there. So the blog had give everything away. Tons of articles. I have a YouTube channel by the same name, Instagram channel by the same name. So tons of videos. Um, my book is called sell the way you buy and you can find it on Amazon audible or wherever you buy it.

[00:24:20] Fantastic. We will include the link in there in the show notes for everybody. If you enjoyed today's episode, please write us a review, share the show with your friends. It really helps. And it's always we're listening for your feedback. Hey, you stuck around that tells me you're [00:24:35] serious about your own sales transformation.

[00:24:37] If you're tired of doing things the old way and want to get started in your journey with other people on the same path. Head over to sales, cast.community and crush your numbers on your leaderboard. Yeah. It's free sales cast.community. Send me a DM with your best pitch and mention this ad. And I might even give you free access to our best templates.