This episode of the Sales Transformation Podcast with Collin Mitchell features Wayne Morris, Principal at Morris Consulting LLC. Working as a door-to-door salesman halfway around the world, Wayne became the notorious "Donut Boy" for his zero sales.
Determined to reinvent himself, he discarded the standard sales script and decided to just present his authentic self to clients. What Wayne learned is that approaching clients with a genuine desire to help and listening to conversation cues results in dramatically more sales.
Almost overnight, he became the Golden Boy and was making 34 sales in just one day. Now a consultant, Wayne advises founders on their go to market strategies and buyer personas and streamlines their sales process to focus on high-fidelity customers.
02:43 An internship sparks a curiosity in sales and how to influence its dynamics
10:30 Working as a door to door salesman and becoming "Donut Boy"
22:07 Increase sales by rewriting the script and being your authentic self
36:21 Listening as a sales strategy and knowing buyer personas
41:48 Aligning growth: Know your product, customers, and competitors
45:40 Find high-fidelity opportunities for your sales teams
47:28 Connect with Wayne
10:03 "These guys are just leveraging other people in the business who are super smart technically... to get the customer into vision in order to buy. So I could see the dynamic and... I was wondering how I could influence that dynamic."
22:12 "Clearly this playbook is not working for me. It's just not working for me. And I just made this decision to just rip it up and the decision I made was to figure this out for myself."
24:22 "What I realized I really enjoyed was just learning about people. Like who are you, what do you do, what's your life all about, and is there a way which I can help you."
41:54 "The work that I do today is really all about ensuring that founders have focus around the value that they're building in their product and ensuring that they have focus on their go to market teams to ensure that they're targeting the right customers."
46:25 "What the smart leaders do is they, upfront, they have much clearer definitions of who they're targeting and who the ideal customer profile is because what they want to do is to have high-fidelity opportunities landing on the salesperson's desk."
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[00:00:00] Collin Mitchell: In the world of sales, you either sink or swim or breakthrough to the next level. My name's Colin Mitchell. And this is sales transformation, a new kind of sales show designed to bring you through the epic life-changing moments of elite sellers. So you can experience your own sales transformation.
[00:00:29] Hey, before we start today's episode, I wanted to bring you in on the best kept secret in B2B sales. If you're serious about social selling and your only strategy is cold DMS through LinkedIn, you're missing the mark big time. Learn how I fully manage revenue generating podcasts can change your life and your firstname.lastname@example.org.
[00:00:55] Welcome to another episode of sales transformation. My name is Collin Mitchell and I'm your [00:00:59] host. And today's episode is one that I'm super excited about. I had the pleasure of really getting to know Wayne Morris. He runs his own consulting firm, where he helps companies with their go-to market strategy.
[00:01:12] His last three companies grew from zero to multimillion in annual recurring revenue. Within months of deploying his go to market philosophies, one even sold. To Oracle for 150 million. And we went way back to his experience right out of college. When he was selling door to door, he had a lot of struggles and a lot of failures and falling on his face early on in that first job of selling door to door, these little devices that, uh, would help people lower the rates of international calls.
[00:01:48] And somebody took a chance on him. Because at that point, after two straight weeks of getting beat up, they'd given him [00:01:58] the nickname donut boy, because he'd show up every day with a big fat zero on the board. And he went from donut boy to golden boy, and that is what we dig into in this episode. So I hope you enjoy it.
[00:02:12] Wayne, welcome sales transformation, Cohen.
[00:02:15] Wayne Morris: It's a real pleasure. Thanks for having me on and shout out to Clint for introducing it. Yeah.
[00:02:20] Collin Mitchell: Yeah. So, um, just let's just jump right in here. Give us the, give us the door to door sales story. Like, how did you get into that? What was that like in, and let's take it from there.
[00:02:34] Wayne Morris: Yeah. Well,
[00:02:37] Collin Mitchell: yeah, so you could be honest. It was horrible.
[00:02:43] Wayne Morris: Yeah. So maybe I'll rewind a little bit before that and I'll give you this kind of leader, because I think that really. That really applies. So I come from a low income immigrant military family in the [00:02:57] UK. Um, I was the first in my family to read for a degree at university. So I had that as like my start in life.
[00:03:06] And actually to me, that felt like a fantastic start. I was like, wow, like everyone else before. Has it been like a struggle for them, but my parents sacrificed, they did everything they could. I mean, to me, it was a cool upbringing. I loved it. It was, you know, it was gritty. My father was a special forces dude.
[00:03:26] Well like a, uh, like a British commander. In the British military, I'm not quite special forces, but up there. So, you know, I had that pretty, I had that pretty hard upbringing and I went to a, um, I went to a military boarding school. So for me, I had this military upbringing all the way through to the age of eight.
[00:03:48] And then got a degree and then really hustle, even though I'd had a half decent educational, got a, [00:03:56] got a degree. I still had to hustle my way into a decent job. Um, and I took an internship in London for a large firm. Um, a news agency called Reuters. Now it's Thomson Reuters, but I had to take an internship even though I graduated because I just couldn't get on the graduate part.
[00:04:15] Um, so everything for me has been, has been a hustle. I didn't realize it was just like, kind of born into my DNA now, reflecting on it. It's pretty obvious. But at the T you know, like I really didn't know at the time and in that, uh, In that job, it was actually a marketing. I was, uh, I was an intern in marketing communications and I was working really closely with sales guys.
[00:04:46] And I realized that was my epiphany. I realized that those sales guys, uh, also some of them are [00:04:55] first-generation graduates also came from low-income backgrounds. But the other thing I realized was that those. The sales guys were making really good money. And to me, that was a real life. And I was like, wow, this is, this is the pathway.
[00:05:12] If you work them hard, you can find a way to a better life through sales. Um, unfortunately for me, uh, so here's what I did. I basically befriended a few of the sales guys and said, look, what is it that you're doing? That's really crappy that you really hate that you'd love not to be doing. Cause I'll do it.
[00:05:37] I'll do it for you. And they were like, great. Yeah. We hate putting together PowerPoint presentations. Like we hate having to adjust them and adapt them. We've got to go see these. So I was like, okay, cool. Send me your PowerPoint presentation. I'm in marketing. I'll figure out. I'll make it look slick. So that's [00:05:54] what I started doing.
[00:05:54] I started to see their sales pitch. Oh, cool. Okay. I can now see what they're pitching and then I'll throw one. A couple of them said, how you put this deck together. Do you want to come on the meeting with me? Um, and we were selling into merchant banks in the city trying to come on the meeting with me just in case, you know, I've got like, you know, something I want to ask you side.
[00:06:14] Yeah, right on. I definitely want to do that. So hello, long story short. Um, the company had a reshuffle six months into my one year intern. The managing director of the business, uh, got to know me because I was helping out the guys making the money and he said, Hey, look, you have your choice of any like entry-level job you want in the company.
[00:06:39] Have, you can have, you can take first pick as, as a, for the next six months, what you want. So I chose a sales job in this is 1998. Right. I'm getting I'm sure my age, I came back and tell him. [00:06:53] So,
[00:06:53] Collin Mitchell: um, w I have a question I want to just jump in for a second. I mean, not very many people do that. Like do somebody else's job for them.
[00:07:02] Cause they're just so curious. About learning more about that role. I mean, there's, there's this constant battle of sales and marketing pointing the finger at each other and not doing each other's work. Right. So, I mean, those sales guys or girls must be. This guy wants to do our work for us. Why not? Right.
[00:07:25] Like what made you so curious about wanting to learn what the salespeople were doing
[00:07:31] Wayne Morris: it? Cause it was my, I just saw it as the, I I've always associated money with freedom and these guys were making three or four times the amount of money that anyone else was making and they didn't really talk about it, but it was just obvious.
[00:07:48] It was just really obvious. So I was just ultra [00:07:52] curious, what was it about them? That was so good, so special, so different that wasn't so good. So special, so different about everybody else. It was a baseline curiosity. Like what is it? What is it that they've got like, and
[00:08:09] Collin Mitchell: I just need to know. Yeah. Yeah. I just,
[00:08:13] Wayne Morris: I had to find out, so how, like, I just needed to get close to them.
[00:08:18] They will just let me close to them. Like, Hey dude, like, can I hang out with you for a bit? Like who you like kicking the hell out of it? Yeah. So, yeah,
[00:08:28] Collin Mitchell: but I'll let you do my work for be sure.
[00:08:32] Wayne Morris: How can I get my in and you know, the odd beer down the pub, I was like, Hey, like what's crappy about your job. You know, if someone else was doing that for you, could you sell them?
[00:08:44] Yeah, that's a smart way to think. Okay. What is it? I'll do it for you. I'll try.
[00:08:48] Collin Mitchell: That was your first sale right [00:08:51] there. Mean it didn't pay a great commission, but it was your first sale.
[00:08:57] Wayne Morris: Yeah. Um, but I got lucky, man. The, a guy called James Adams, uh, took me under his wing and he was like, you can come with me here.
[00:09:07] You know, you do my decks, you've earned the right to come with me everywhere. Some of the other guys were like, yeah, thanks. Like I'll come back to you. I need some more stuff.
[00:09:19] Yeah. Didn't spend too much time with those guys. But this guy, this guy was like, uh, you deserve a shot, man. You come out and you can, you can help me out. So then I kind of like, what they would do is pretty complex. They were selling trading platforms into merchant banks and to be completely honest, most of it, if not, all of it was over my head, I was sat there in these meetings.
[00:09:45] Like, what are these guys talking about? But it got me into the environment [00:09:50] and it was, there was something exhilarating about it. There was an energy and I was like, look, these guys are making good money. This is interesting. There's a really good energy. And actually these guys are just like leveraging other people in the business who are super smart, technically to get what they need in order to get the customer and division in order to buy.
[00:10:12] So I could, I could see the demand and I was intrigued by that dynamic. And I was wondering how I could influence that dynamic. And that was my very first introduction to sales. I then they had then had the Resha for, I then took a job in this department called new media, which is basically what we now call technology.
[00:10:36] And I remember my boss's boss who had given me this opportunity to get into any role I wanted to any department in the company taking me a science. What the hell are you doing? Like we sell into merchant [00:10:49] banks, financial markets, everyone wants to sell to merchant banks. Why do you want to go into this crappy little near immediate department?
[00:10:57] And I was like, well, I think this internet thing's going to be pretty big. And, uh, yeah, he was like, okay, if you really want to do that, like people I'm giving opportunity that people don't get for 15 years in their career. And you want to like, do the new media thing. I was like, Well, it's like, okay, can you go for it?
[00:11:17] Collin Mitchell: You kind of, you could have easily, you could have easily been persuaded the other direction and they could've, it would've changed the whole trajectory of your career. Probably.
[00:11:28] Wayne Morris: Yeah. The easiest to, to say that everyone was surprised by that decision is an understatement. I mean, lots of people, the same people that were teaching me to sell were taking me out for beers saying, what do you.
[00:11:46] Like, this is, this is, uh, you know, what are you [00:11:48] doing? But I just, I was fresh out of college. Um, you know, I'd been using this sounds crazy now in 2021, but I'd been like very actively, you know, writing my dissertation, uh, on. You know, on computers I'd been using email frequently. I'd been S I've been using the first search engines that were out there.
[00:12:12] And to me, it just seemed really obvious. So now those
[00:12:17] Collin Mitchell: now those same people that were like, Thinking, why do you want to do this stupid new media thing are probably kicking themselves thinking, man, we should have listened to that guy that used to do our decks and get into that new media.
[00:12:33] Wayne Morris: I was still in talks with one or two of those guys.
[00:12:35] They're doing just fine. The financial market is still pretty big. I wouldn't feel too sorry for those guys, but they're there. They're there they're really good guys. But [00:12:47] anyway, I left. There was a great year man, a year at university that experience, you know, my parents were like, cause they offered me a job.
[00:12:57] So I did the internship more like, oh, you're not really an employee. Do you want to be an employee? Do you want a job? And that's my parents. They were like, yeah. I mean, you know, working class, low income university, they were like, he's being offered a job in the city. Like it's actually a real job. Like, you know, they fully expected me to just jump at it.
[00:13:19] Like, no, I, I actually didn't meet this job. And if people were like, why. I, I know my path. Like I've got it. I've nailed it. What I need to do now is do something I've not done before that I really need to get out of the system and escape traveling around the world. And that's what led me to door to door sales.
[00:13:39] Collin Mitchell: Wow. I, I had no idea that there was so much before doing more sales. [00:13:46] Well that I just assumed. I assumed that door to door sale. Was the beginning.
[00:13:55] Wayne Morris: Yeah. Well, you know,
[00:13:58] Collin Mitchell: or sales now. And you said that that involve some traveling.
[00:14:04] Wayne Morris: Yeah. So I was I'm from the UK, as you may be able to tell by my accent and, uh, That experience I just described to you as in London, uh, me and my best mate, we decided to go traveling around the world and a halfway point was Sydney, Australia, and we get to Sydney and we're broke.
[00:14:25] We've spent all of our, we spent all of our money, uh, in the U S and in the Pacific islands. And New Zealand had a great time that we get to Sydney and we're broken. You need to make some money. Yeah. I three, three of the guys, we knew who my best mate went off door [00:14:45] to door sedan. And I was like, no, I only did that.
[00:14:47] I've worked for this big company in the city, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't need to do that. And they kept coming back to their stories and I was pretending to be disinterested and not particularly approving, um, And they kept coming back and then it's just, oh God. I was like, I cannot let those guys like keep coming back to, in their stories.
[00:15:09] Like they it's just like, this is just get to me. So after a week I broke her, like you, okay, I'm in, let me go check out what this is all about. Um, so what, so the product was at telecoms international landlord. Okay. Telecoms product. So if you made international calls, you could attach this. Essentially to your preexisting incumbent phone line.
[00:15:38] Every time you made an international call, it would cut the cost significantly, like really [00:15:44] significantly. Um, and it was door to door sales. So turn up on someone's door and you do the pitch. So it's classic multi-level marketing situation. You turn up in the morning, seven, eight. That's the big kind of, you know, motivational speech.
[00:16:01] There's the, all the trainings in, oh, I've got to say like from day one, I was like, this is, you know, I am not buying this crap. Like, this is, this is, I don't need this shit. Like, I'll just, just, just keep, just give me the damn product and I'll knock on the doors and let's just see how we go. But, but I did.
[00:16:23] Uh, that's what I was thinking about. I was like, man, I do this properly. Follow the rules, not the rules, follow the process. Don't be arrogant. Go with it. So that's what I did. I took the, the scripted pitch. I listened to the attitude that everyone had the hat, the tapes, the door, I just [00:16:43] followed the program, um, and went out and knocking on doors and Sydney, Australia, those first two weeks.
[00:16:53] We're the most soul searching weeks I've ever had in my professional career, I would, so we would go out, we'd get there at 7:00 AM. We'd hit the streets that maybe 9:00 AM and we wouldn't get back till 6:00 PM. So they were long day. And obviously on your feet. Every day for two weeks, I'd come back and hear people smashing the gong, the, all the classic sales stuff.
[00:17:22] Uh, and I, you know, little old me would walk in and it'd be like, oh wait, how many did you get any deals today? Like, no, no. Next day, did you get any deals? Nope. Oh, you get one tomorrow night, 14 days in. I got the nickname donut boy. I mean like, I mean, it's like, he comes down with a boy.[00:17:42]
[00:17:45] Collin Mitchell: You guys managed to get that nickname.
[00:17:51] Wayne Morris: Yeah. I mean like all listeners though.
[00:17:57] If you look at donut, it looks like the big fat zero.
[00:18:09] Collin Mitchell: Oh man. And you stuck with it. I mean at that point, you were probably determined. Like, I can't
[00:18:17] Wayne Morris: leave
[00:18:22] for this point. There's a certain point of no return. Like you're broke. You literally scrounging off your mates to get some food. You're not turning up to the pub anymore because you're just like embarrassed. And then, but there's just something in you that says [00:18:41] I'm going to figure this damn thing out.
[00:18:45] Uh, it's very painful. Describe what that is.
[00:18:49] Collin Mitchell: All the best salespeople love the challenge, you know? So I think at that point in that moment, you're just like, I'm not going to go out like that.
[00:19:01] Wayne Morris: Yeah. I mean, there's just, my nickname was thrown up, boy. I mean, like what, like that, that is going to hang around. I mean, like that's gonna, you know, that was just like a white round.
[00:19:13] My neck. So oh, but they was rough, you know, it was rough. I was literally skipping meals because I just couldn't Instagram. You have mates. It was, I had no money in my bank. Uh, cause
[00:19:27] Collin Mitchell: it's not.
[00:19:29] Wayne Morris: Yeah. Um, so here's the thing. My boss. So we used to do these road trips out of Sydney into the [00:19:40] suburbs. And supposedly the suburbs were like the gold rush.
[00:19:43] It was just much easier to do business there, but it was costly for them. Managers to send you there because there's, you know, high car there's accommodation, there's, you know, budget they have. So they're only going to send their best salespeople out of town because they need to make a lot of money. So there's all my mates, you know, talking about, looking forward to go to this place clamor in south new south Wales, south of Sydney, to outside of Sydney and then thinking.
[00:20:14] That they're going to have fun. What am I going to do? But, but luckily for me, my boss saw something she could see, I think she could just see that I was working with them. I mean, I was working, I mean, I wasn't cutting corners. Um, and she took me aside and said, Hey, like, I think you should go on this trip.
[00:20:33] I think it would be good. I can see your work with them. Hard stick with it and enjoy it. Don't [00:20:39] put pressure on yourself. Just go it. So I was like, wow, like my boss just backed me, my boss, like the boss, just banked donut boy, to go figure this out.
[00:20:52] Collin Mitchell: You start with the dialer boy, or we're just going to be sitting here laughing the whole time.
[00:21:01] I don't know what it is, but. It's the delivery or they're sending doughnut boy to the suburbs. Yeah.
[00:21:12] Wayne Morris: And, um, but you know, but that was brave of her, right? Because she, she was choosing me over others, the work. So that was my very first lesson. I looked her in the eye of like, do you know what that's the, this is, this could be a big lesson for me and for everyone.
[00:21:31] So I felt a responsibility to her for that kind of confidence or [00:21:38] commitment. She went out,
[00:21:40] Collin Mitchell: she took a chance.
[00:21:41] Wayne Morris: Yeah. And then the other thing was, I was like, well, what have I got to lose? Like, what have I got to lose? This is like, You know, south of Sydney, it's going to be really nice. Like, no one's expecting anything with me.
[00:21:55] They just going to expect me to yeah. Being this massive box of donuts at the end of the day. Like they, they really, really like, no, there's just no weight on my shoulders. So on this trip, south two hours in the car, I was like, look, clearly this playbook is not working for me. It's just not working for me.
[00:22:17] And I've just made this decision to Arish rip it up. And the decision I made was to figure this out for myself, the playbooks, the scripts, uh, all shortcuts, like, like no shortcuts, like put the work in, figure this out for yourself. And the first thing I [00:22:37] did was. I thought deeply about the product. Like, what was it, what was the value?
[00:22:44] It was bringing people. Was it genuine? And would people be, be interested? Was there some real value there? And the answer was yes, but only for certain people, but I came to this conclusion, myself, the script, doesn't tell you that the script just says sell to everyone on it. But the conclusion I came to was don't sell to everyone on the door.
[00:23:05] Conclusion I came to was there are certain people that though you should not sell to, you should basically say no to and move on to the next. And I had to, um, and I made this decision to clearly define in my mind who those people were as the very first thing I did. Um, the next thing I did was, you know, I just need to be myself.
[00:23:33] Like I just need to be who I am. I'm [00:23:36] not someone else I'm trying to be made to be, because that's the only way I'm going to enjoy myself. Like what do I need to enjoy myself? So, um, I re I, I resolved on that journey to only sell. To the people that I thought there was value in taking this product. And I resolved to just be myself and then to Jew and just be myself.
[00:24:06] I then asked the question about, well, who am I like, what is it, what is it about this that I really enjoy? And why I really enjoy was making people's lives a bit better and figuring out what it was that would make people's lives a bit better. So what I realized I really enjoy. Was just learning about people.
[00:24:26] Like, who are you, what do you do? What's your life all about? And like, is there a way which I can help you? [00:24:35] Um, I like took that to the first door in Panorama that following. And I was, uh, I was, I always dressed nursery background means I was always dressed smartly. So I had clean, polished shoes. I was, you know, I had a buttoned down shirt with tie, like, you know, often mistaken for a Jehovah's witness.
[00:25:02] You know, I was like, I was the guy. Walk around the street that everyone did not think was, you know, out there, they thought I was working in an office, but not knocked on the door. And I was nervous as hell. I was like, I was really
[00:25:20] Collin Mitchell: nervous going off
[00:25:21] Wayne Morris: script. Yeah. I was like, I, I was nervous, but I was, but I was thinking, just be yourself, just be yourself.
[00:25:31] Just see what happens. You've got nothing to lose [00:25:34] and, uh, and smile and smile. Just smile. They have one of these faces that doesn't have like a natural smile. You put your nose, like is like naturally stern. So smiling for me is like, perfect. But when I smoke, you know, it comes out. So I smile at the door and this old lady opened the door and she smiled back.
[00:25:56] I realized for the very first time I was like, She smiled back. No one's ever done that. No one's ever smile back at me. And then I was like, oh, so the way you start is really important and the smile is really important. Gets you off on the right foot. It's the first victory on this very, very quick path to potential success.
[00:26:22] Collin Mitchell: That first impression. Yeah. Building rapport from the initial start of the conversation.
[00:26:30] Wayne Morris: So she, we just got talking [00:26:33] and I found out before I knew anything about the product, I just found out she had a brother in London or in the UK. And obviously I was from the UK. So we got talking about that for a bit.
[00:26:45] I was on the door for 15 minutes. I was about, I had such a good conversation. I was about to walk off. She called me back and said, why did you knock on the door? Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, yeah. Uh, I mean, town selling this product, or like helping people say money on their international phone lines, I guess you make it so coolest.
[00:27:09] Cause you've got your, yeah. How I make international calls. I make a lot of international calls and she literally took the clipboard out of my hand and was like, why is this? She filled it out pretty much herself signed it pretty much herself gave me the clipboard back. I'm going to call to my friends, make sure you go to that door.
[00:27:29] So I left like the first door. I hadn't [00:27:32] even tried to sell. She closed the deal for me and she set up three more deals down the street. So like I had not even try, I hadn't tried sell and they knew I was on four deals. For deals I'd spend
[00:27:50] Collin Mitchell: more donut. Yeah,
[00:27:55] Wayne Morris: that's it like don't have boys. So
[00:27:58] Collin Mitchell: there's so many, there's so many valuable things.
[00:28:01] And in all of that, I don't even know where to start, but, um, such an important piece in sales, be yourself, write scripts early on. You know, you gotta, you gotta find your way. Right. And, and, um, I'm not saying, you know, ditch the script on day one, right? You got to understand, like, what are we trying to accomplish here?
[00:28:25] What are we trying to do? You know, what are my goals in the conversation? [00:28:31] Um, And people talk about, you know, building, building their personal brand. Like that's such a load of crap. Like your personal brand is like who your authentic self is and just be comfortable with being that you're not going to be a good fit for everybody, but you're going to find your people, the people that you are most likely to do business with.
[00:28:51] Um, and the interesting thing there is. You forgot to sell or something you invested in the person in the conversation. Um, you build trust and rapport and. I like to tell people, you know, they ask like wins, wins the first wins the perfect time to pitch when they ask you to yeah. Yeah. When they ask you to pitch, you know, frontline load with a great experience and adding value and positioning yourself in it as an expert on a particular topic, uh, don't lead with your features and [00:29:30] benefits and pricing, you know, uh, that's how you can separate yourself in life.
[00:29:35] Good old donut. Boy knew how to do that in the suburbs, you know, by ditching the script, being himself.
[00:29:44] Wayne Morris: I think what I'd say no, it's like the soul searching of those two weeks, you know? Donut boy's soul was like ripped out and laid out in front of him. I like what I'd say to a lot of people who are starting out or go through a rough time is like, that's the context for the rest of your day, week, month, quarter, year career.
[00:30:14] I got to say like the lessons that I learned. In, in that period of time, I'm just describing, this is 1999. Now like 22 years on today, they stick [00:30:29] with me. I use them, I built on them every day for 22 years. So, you know, this, uh, those lessons are very, very valuable. And to your point about being your authentic.
[00:30:43] Yeah. I told you at the outset, I grew up low income immigrant military family. First university, when you have that background is pretty hard to figure out who your authentic self is, because you don't want to be your authentic self. You want to be someone else because you know that if you're your authentic self, you're not gonna get very far because email's society is stacked against you.
[00:31:09] Collin Mitchell: So I totally, I totally relate with that. You know, I also grew up very poor raised by a single mom with three brothers, dad wasn't around barely by the skin of my teeth, made it through high school, hated [00:31:28] everything about school. Rarely showed up. Um, college was not even in the cards for me because frankly nobody told me it was important.
[00:31:38] Wayne Morris: Yeah.
[00:31:40] Collin Mitchell: And my first job was a commission only over the phone sales job. And I had nothing to lose. Like, you know, people talk about, I wanted to be this when I grew up or I went to school to do this. Sales was my plan B or fall back. And my experience was like, I had no other opportunities knocking at my door.
[00:32:02] That was it for me. Um, which is why I love the profession so much
[00:32:08] Wayne Morris: because it was, yeah, it's the great leveler. Um, but you know, being your authentic self, when you have that background, I dunno know what it was like for you call him, but for me, You know, living in the, you know, class [00:32:27] society like the UK, um, it was know speaking, frankly, it's still, it'll take me a long time to figure out who my authentic self really is.
[00:32:40] You know, you, it takes a long time to undo a lot of that stuff. And I'm probably like only now really getting to that, to that point where I've, you know, where I feel like I really know. Who I really am. And the irony of it all is it's like who I was, is like, who, you know, who my parents brought me up to be.
[00:33:02] But so much of that gets like churn the round as you're, as you're growing up, um, in, you know, in the society that you're aspiring to, to be in, but it was, but sales really helped me on has really helped me understand. Who my authentic self is because really there's no, the great thing about sales is [00:33:26] when you're in the field of battle in order to succeed, there's really no where to hide.
[00:33:32] And if you want to optimize. If you want to optimize your success in sales, you have to figure out who your authentic self is because people do buy from people they need to trust in you. They need to believe in you and they need to do it damn quick. So like trying to try to fake that is really difficult and it's disgusting.
[00:33:58] Yeah, it's
[00:33:58] Collin Mitchell: actually, it's actually more work. It's actually more
[00:34:01] Wayne Morris: work. Yeah. A hundred percent agree. It's a lot more work. The, the th the donut boy turned into golden boy. I mean, like I sold from that day onwards, I made loads of money. I mean, fortunately I did, I did 34 sales in one day. I went two weeks not making a sale.
[00:34:23] And, and I, you [00:34:25] know, And I started to play with the play with the job. It was, it was, you know, I could look at, I could, I got to the point where I, I couldn't do a deal to where I could look at a house and. And I could predict the persona type that was going to open the, whether they'd be in like predictive, certain type that would open the door to very high accuracy.
[00:34:46] And I would adjust my pitch slightly, even before they opened the door, knowing that the probability of me getting that pitch right was high. And I could get off to a faster start, which would save me time, moving on to the next I'll get to the next hour. You know, it went, it literally went full. So. Oh, totally useless to just like real, really precise clinical, uh, selling so that, that spectrum of sales person I've lived it I've, I've been the doughnut boy and I've been the golden boy.
[00:35:21] I like being everything in between [00:35:24] and I know. Deep inside me that, on that spectrum, salespeople do different things all along that spectrum, whether it's door to door selling or whether it's selling million dollar deals in enterprise SAS, you know, there is a whole spectrum that you have to be tuned tuned in.
[00:35:43] Collin Mitchell: Wow. Wow. I didn't anticipate, we would spend this much time on your door to door experience, but I'm glad that we did, because it's such an important piece of your authentic self. You know, it really like molded, um, you as a person, as a seller, you know, from going from no sales for two weeks to 34 in a day.
[00:36:07] And you know that early on being able to like. Think about personas and door to door selling. I don't think people doing door to door selling were that advanced?
[00:36:20] Wayne Morris: Well, it was all just about number, you know, it was [00:36:23] really all about. You know, how many doors can I knock on, uh, within a finite period? Like before it goes dark, you know, it was like him, you know, and, and I felt comfortable.
[00:36:36] It wasn't, it was a quality play over volume, but I knew that. I had something that people would want that will be valuable. And I would be able to figure out really, really quickly, whether they are the right fit. And I would tell them, right. The funny thing is, is like, and I've written about this, a good amount on LinkedIn.
[00:36:56] Like the funny thing is the people that it wasn't a good fit for. I was so clear. It wasn't a good fit for, I would, I would say, Hey, this isn't a good fit for you. Um, these are the reasons why, um, I'm going to. Thanks for your time. I'm going to move on. But they were the hardest people to get away from.
[00:37:14] They were like, no, no, no, no, no. What, what do you mean? Like, well, you don't make enough international coasts. Yeah. But like John down the road, he's got it. [00:37:22] I'm like, yeah. But cause he makes lots of international calls. So you have, I want it. So there was this like Jones theory. Yeah.
[00:37:30] Collin Mitchell: Yeah. Or if I had it, I'd make more international calls.
[00:37:35] Wayne Morris: So I'm stood on the door. I consult like, Hey, I'm talking. It's crazy. I got, I've gone from doing new deals to talking them out of doing a deal with me and that, but the thing is, is like what happened then was that person would be like, you're such a good guy, man. Like I am. I don't need salespeople that come to the door, convince me not to buy that product.
[00:37:59] Collin Mitchell: I mean, the care if I need it, I still want to buy it from you right in the
[00:38:04] Wayne Morris: psychology there of, you know, um, offering something and then taking it away that that creates scarcity. Right? So people, people get more interested, but that wasn't my intention, but the guy would then call his mates and say, This isn't good for me, but this [00:38:21] is good for you.
[00:38:21] Look out for Wayne. He's going to be knocking on your door. Know, so I would get to the door and sometimes he's like, oh, you're waiting here. Where do I sign it? And I wouldn't even have to do the pitch. And so that's how you got 34 sales on days. You know, the no leads you to lots of yeses in
[00:38:35] Collin Mitchell: this. This is.
[00:38:37] This applies to anything that you sell. This is not specific to door to door. Like you were caring more about the people, right? Like th when you, that, that period, you know, that drive up to the suburbs, right? You want something you mentioned was you, you got clear on like who this is, who this can actually add value to and who, who it's not for.
[00:38:59] And so many people get stuck in that place that you were for that two-week period of like, My products for everybody, you know, or my products for anybody who's willing to pay me for it. Or, you know, getting very clear on like, here's the people that I know I can add value to or the best fit for what I do, [00:39:20] but also getting super clear on the people that are not, which allows you to spend more time with the people that are disqualified people that aren't like you mentioned.
[00:39:29] Uh, but then yeah, those people may still. And, and maybe, maybe, you know, it could be of benefit to them. But the more important thing is you are just being so honest with them rather than trying to pressure them into selling it. That even if they didn't need it, they were willing to tell you, tell their friends about,
[00:39:49] Wayne Morris: yeah.
[00:39:50] And that's, this is something that applies in every sales situation, as you just said, whether it's. I mean anything. Absolutely. If you, if you can, if you can deeply understand the value of your product and you can deeply understand the people that will find value in the product. So this is really all about what am I unique selling points, [00:40:19] who are our ideal customer profile and what are our buy and who are our buyer personas and being very clear about that to yourself.
[00:40:29] Um, I mean, I actually, I messaged to leaders. It's really about leadership. You know, the leaders need to be very clear about that and they need to stop dictating to salespeople that. Prospects should be sold to
[00:40:45] Collin Mitchell: because, right. Yeah. What do you mean? They filled out a form on our website. Of course we should sell to
[00:40:49] Wayne Morris: them.
[00:40:49] Yeah. Yeah. A need like, you know, like they're, they're, they're relieved, like marketing calls and
[00:40:55] Collin Mitchell: inbound. Okay. There you're an inbound
[00:40:57] Wayne Morris: clearly.
[00:40:59] Collin Mitchell: Yeah, no. So this is, this kind of leads into, I mean, this is the work that you do, right with people is go to market strategy of like, I mean, what you figured on early on it got you out of, out of the nickname.
[00:41:14] Donut boy has like molded all the work that [00:41:18] you've done after significant.
[00:41:21] Wayne Morris: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, this is, uh, you know, this podcast is about sales transformation and like they're going to be 21, 22 year olds out there thinking I there's no way. There's no way I can like build my own company and consult with the preeminent, um, like future top tech executives.
[00:41:44] But I mean, you really can. I mean, like, you know, the, the lessons that you, that you learned early on in your career will, will, will last you forever. That the work that I do today is really all about. Um, ensuring that founders have focus around the value that they're building in their product and ensuring that they have focused and they go to market teams to ensure that they're targeting the right customers with the right message.
[00:42:14] Um, and it's [00:42:17] incredible how many founders build incredible products, but they build incredible products for their wide Combinator cohort. You know, it's like, okay, you know, you've sold this to your. To your incubator cohort of, uh, uh, friends. Um, but like now you've got a real company and now it looks really good, but how are you going to scale it in the real world?
[00:42:41] So like going back and understanding, right? Who's your real competitive set? Who is it that you, what, what are your actual unique selling points? Now you understand that your competitive set really is. Um, and what's the narrative around that, you know, I'm fine. Once you understand that, who, who is, what, what is the profile of customer that you really should be targeting and who are the people in those customers that need to hear that message?
[00:43:09] And what I find is a year or two into a business, it changes pretty [00:43:16] dramatically. Um, and you know, maybe, you know, there's, there's, there's often a relation between where you started and where you are. But it's it's, it's not perfect. There is often a really big shift and the issue there is, if you don't understand that in detail, you're basically telling your sales people to sell to people that aren't going to buy and they're wasting time.
[00:43:42] And time is the biggest killer of businesses and the salespeople and top salespeople know that. So where I spend my time is ensuring that they, the founders and sales leaders have their team, um, aligned together in unison around who the ideal customer profile is and what that narrative is. And it does Cohen as you've rightly pointed out.
[00:44:05] Yeah. Does give back. So that very deep experience I have. Door to door selling when I was not doing that when [00:44:15] I was just following instruction. When I, when I was being essentially told to sell to everyone, anyone. So my energies were just missed that. And it was difficult. And, you know, I think to the conclusion that that wasn't smart today, like in the world of technology, whether it's so many signals about conversion rate, there are, you know, one, one thing that shocks me still today is you spent tech on, we spend all this money getting leads to becoming.
[00:44:47] Sales qualified opportunities and still, so that means that they picked out the companies that picked out the buyer personas, they delivered a narrative, is gone through marketing has gone through the SDRs. It's now prime and it's tick all the boxes. We understand what the metrics are. They're going to measure us by, you know, we understand what the decision making process and the criteria is.
[00:45:11] We understand literally. [00:45:14] Everything about the opportunity. This is a net we should be in going to buy within the timeframe that we wanted to buy. I said, this should close. There's no reason they shouldn't close. And only one in three of those dealers closes one in three deals closes. Why is that? Like, why is that?
[00:45:34] That in fact
[00:45:35] Collin Mitchell: is they're knocking on the wrong door.
[00:45:37] Wayne Morris: Well, they, I mean, either they were Rocky knocking on the road those nights, they were, that's a, you know, maybe that's a marketing problem, but if, but it's is those deals are truly qualified. Those are the right doors. But, but if they've been forced to lock on the wrong doors as well, These deals are obscured in this sea of other deals that really are not, they shouldn't be working.
[00:46:07] So there's only so many hours in the day. There's only so many doors you can knock on. If you're going to like [00:46:13] dump a load of, um, kind of. Opportunities that have low fidelity. Some have like Saudi, some have high fidelity and even to ourselves, we'll just figure it out. That's going to be really, really difficult.
[00:46:24] The S the, what the smart leaders do is they upfront, they have much clearer definitions of, of who they're targeting and who their ideal customer profile is because what they want to do is to have high fidelity opportunities land on the salesperson's desk. And when they do. They, um, that's when you'll see close rates increase, but even, but even when close rates increase, I think there's still a big opportunity in the industry to increase the close rate from the industry average of one in three to something more like one in two.
[00:46:57] And if you do the math on that, you're talking about companies, valuations rising clearly very, very significantly. Wow.
[00:47:06] Collin Mitchell: Wow. Wow. Been fantastic having [00:47:12] you on. I really enjoyed learning the story of donut boy to golden boy. You're your own personal sales transformation, tons of value and learning lessons in there, um, that people can apply.
[00:47:28] Where can people follow? You learn more about the work that you do or anything else that you want us to include in the show notes so they can get into your world.
[00:47:38] Wayne Morris: Yeah, so this I'm revamping my website, but way morris.org is the website. Um, looking at for a revamp of that, uh, shortly I really active on LinkedIn.
[00:47:48] They should find me on LinkedIn. Um, we can hopefully put that in the show notes. I write about this stuff all the time. The I've done 20 plus years in the industry. Um, and now it's time for me to pay forward these experiences. Um, so they can follow me on LinkedIn. Um, and you'll see an article from me [00:48:11] about once a week.
[00:48:12] Um, it will be on my blog. It will also go onto LinkedIn. Um, and you know, I do my best to post on this subject. Most days as well. So, um, and I look, and here's the thing, you know, there are sales guys out there that are going through these tough times. They're still figuring stuff out. I figured out, luckily when I was young, you know, when I was in my early twenties, I figured it out and I didn't look back, but for some people, you know, you'll hit a mid-career.
[00:48:43] Point in time. It will be tough. The same lessons apply. Now, whenever I hear, whenever I hear a tough time, I let the sales go away or always doughnut. Boy is what always comes back to me. Always like that guy. Like I thought I shaking the shackles of donut. Boy, he's never going to. But I really, you know, I'm really pleased that he's there on my shoulder when, when, when times are tough.
[00:49:06] So my, my, my point here is if times are [00:49:10] tough and you don't have that donut boy experience find other people that have the doughnut boy experience, that can be me. That can be other things. Reach out, listen to their stories, figure out what it was. They did. That's what I did with James Adams at Reuters in London.
[00:49:25] I just like sat on his shoulder and figured out what he did. And eventually I figured it out. You don't, you know, find, find the people. It's easy to do it today with all the social media and stuff. Find the people that have figured this out. Follow them. Copy them, no shame, no shame in copying them. And then, and then you'll eventually turn it into your, into your own play.
[00:49:46] So, um, so I write about this stuff all the time. Um, yeah, I link LinkedIn, uh, and my website way more is the auger for it. Two best places to.
[00:49:56] Collin Mitchell: Awesome. We will include those links in the show notes for everyone so they can, uh, learn more and stay up to date on the things that you're writing about. Um, really enjoyed having you on.
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